Major unanswered issues regarding the “literal flood"

[Zzyzx]

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In the Head to Head debate between Osteng and Zzyzx, many issues have been raised to cast doubt upon the flood being literally true. The issues have been addressed briefly, shallowly or not at all – while Osteng insists upon expounding upon a “Flood Model” that purports to be “better” than geology and other natural sciences at explaining Earth features, materials, processes, and present and past life forms.

Since the issues have not been successfully addressed, I choose to open them to general discussion. Perhaps there are theists who can help by providing information to support the “literal flood theory” – or theist members who regard the flood tale as less than literally true and who might have helpful comments -- or non-theists who might care to comment on the issues.

Note: Some of the issues raised below are from applicable genesis passages (quoted by Osteng in post #3 of the Head to Head debate). Others are in response to claims made in favor of the “Flood Model”.

There is ONE condition for discussion in this thread – substantiate, substantiate, substantiate – with real world, credible, verifiable information. Conjecture is NOT welcome in this thread. Saying, ”It could have been possible” is NOT acceptable as substantiation (that is known as a “wuss-out”). “Goddidit” and “because the bible says so” do NOT constitute valid arguments in this thread.

Although twenty issues are presented below, I suggest dealing with ONE topic at a time or one per individual post.

Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the “literal flood”.

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark? No rational explanation has been offered for the gathering of animals worldwide (other than a suggestion that a pair of each “kind” of animal swam, flew, walked, crawled, etc from wherever they lived worldwide to get aboard) and no credible explanation was offered for their return to their native habitats after the flood and cruise -- all without transportation

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark? There has been no satisfactory explanation how thousands or millions of animals aboard a boat could be fed and cared for by eight people during a one-year voyage – with 100% survival to insure that species did not become extinct.)

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) – during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Survival of freshwater and salt water fish through drastic habitat changes has been addressed only superficially – with the claim that “no provision is necessary because they live in water” and “fish could have been different before the flood”. No evidence has been presented that fish were significantly different a few thousand years ago, that the evolved rapidly into present form and that they then stopped evolving rapidly.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded? Survival of plants after a year of flooding has been addressed very superficially by citing means of reproduction NOT survival of plants per se – with conjecture to indicate that restoration of the world’s vegetation happened. No reasoning or evidence has supported the contention. Any plant that could not survive and/or reproduce after a year of flooding would be extinct.

6. How could a dove “return with an olive leaf”? Instantaneous sprouting of an olive leaf just in time to be found by a dove has been weakly discussed – and the very un-dovelike behavior (not shown to be characteristic of doves) of plucking a leaf and returning to the ark has not been shown to be anything other than a children’s bible story.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood? No rational answer has been offered to the question of how fossils were sorted into distinct layers (as known to geologists) if all life forms were wiped out at the same time.

8. Unsupported Claim: “The mountains were lower before the flood” has been claimed with NO indication that the mountains were substantially different a few thousand years ago – and no explanation of how the mountains grew suddenly then slowed or stopped growing. This is diametrically opposed to what is understood by those who study the Earth and nature.

9. Unsupported Claim: “The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained” – (even though people obviously lived on Earth before the flood) is pure conjecture with NO substantiation whatsoever.

10. Unsupported Claim: “The climate was more moderate before the flood” has been claimed. When challenged, the claim was “supported” by citing data relating to climate 50 Million years ago rather than 5 Thousand years ago. AND, the use of such inappropriate and inapplicable data was irrationally “defended” as being representative.

11. Unsupported Claim: “The oceans were much smaller before the flood” is another claim that is made with no substantiation at all. No credible hydrologist, geologist, oceanographer has ever (to my knowledge) proposed that oceans were significantly smaller a few thousand years ago.

12. Unsupported Claim: “The continents were all together before the flood” (unsubstantiated). This represents a distortion of geological studies (based upon actual and accurate measurements) that conclude that continents are moving (on the order of centimeters per year) in relation to one another and have occupied different configurations in the past (millions of years ago – not thousands of years ago).

13. Unsupported Claim: “Water for the flood came from vast caverns ten miles below the Earth’s surface”. NO evidence has been presented that such caverns existed or that they were filled with water. The claim is pure conjecture without even an attempt to provide support or verification.

14. Unsupported Claim: “Water ‘gushing’ out of the [supposed] caverns shoved continents apart”. No evidence is provided to even suggest this is true or that it is possible. The rate of movement apart of North America and Europe would have had to be a minimum of approximately ten miles per day (when actual movement is measured at a few centimeters per year).

15. Unsupported Claim: “Gushing water” formed the mid-oceanic ridges, carved the edges of continents, eroded materials and produced all of the Earth’s sedimentary rocks, ejected material to form comets, (and did not disturb the ark in its journey).

16. Unsupported Claim: “The Earth’s sedimentary rocks were deposited during the flood” – thousands and tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks supposedly deposited in less than a year.

17. Unsupported Claim: “Dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time” (up until the flood). No answer is offered to explain why dinosaur and human fossils are never found in the same rock strata. All studies in anthropology, geology, paleontology, paleobiology, and other natural sciences (based on actual examination of conditions and materials) conclude that dinosaurs were extinct for approximately 65 Million years before Humans appeared. (Emotionally disputed by creationists based on scripture only).

18. Unsupported Claim: “Coal was formed rapidly” [during the flood]. This contrasts with the process of coal formation well known to geologists as well as mining engineers (people actually involved with the subject) – a sequence from peat, to lignite, to bituminous, to anthracite – a slow process.

19. No explanation has been provided for the accumulation of thick layers of salt and gypsum among layers of other sedimentary rocks. Both salt and gypsum are “evaporites” – materials deposited when transporting waters evaporate (as in the case of Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats). Evaporites are formed very slowly and NOT by flooding.

20. No explanation has been provided for the presence of limestone – which consists of small, often microscopic, calcium-rich body parts of marine organisms. Deposits of limestone are known to geologists to require warm water and to be a very slow process. Deposits of limestone layers hundreds or thousands of feet thick did NOT occur in a year or in a flood condition.

21. At least twenty separate “miracles” would be required to “explain” the above – since no rational reasons, reasoning, or evidence has been provided to substantiate any of the claims beyond “it could have been possible” (if enough unsupported assumptions are accepted).

22. If “miracles” are invoked to “explain” how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific – it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. “Goddidit” and “miracles” void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

[Cephus]

That's quite the flood story, the one I usually refer to is found in the book of Genesis.

Unfortunately, what you fail to recognize is that *IS* the flood story found in Genesis. Unless you want to claim that God was performing a dozen miracles every second for the duration, then hundreds more to hide the evidence afterwards, your side has completely lost. If you do want to claim that, your side is no more worthy of evaluation than magical fairies and Santa Claus.

Either way, you lose.

[Metatron]

Yes, goofy sums it up nicely. One has to ignore physics, biology, geology, and common sense to believe in the Genesis flood account.

Are you a leading expert in physics, biology, geology, or the Genesis flood account? If not, are you qualified to call the Genesis flood account "goofy"? Do you have any independent impartial non-evolutionary scientists with knowledge in the relevant fields of science and biblical exegesis who would support your claim that the Genesis flood account is goofy?

...Those are the sort of changes that happen over thousands of years of evolution...

Do you have any independent, impartial, verifiable evidence to support this claim?

I do not have to be an expert in physics, biology, etc. to understand that one can't fit over a million species in a single wooden boat, much less keep them all alive for the entire alleged time of the flood. Nor do I have to be an expert to recognize that there is no geological evidence for the trillions of tons of water that magically appeared in the hydrosphere of earth and then magically disappeared. Nor the fact that the massive changes in salinity in the water would have killed off all ocean and freshwater life. Nor that there is no reasonable explanation how a million plus species migrated from Mt. Ararat to all seven continents across oceans and the extreme variety of environmental conditions between Asia Minor and their "homes".

All that is required is common sense.

That's quite the flood story, the one I usually refer to is found in the book of Genesis.

So what exactly do you deem inaccurate about my interpretation of the Genesis flood account. Did God not include two of every species of animal in the ark? Was there not a great flood of water so great that it covered all of the mountains of the world? Wouldn't a massive increase in water that enveloped both oceans and freshwater lakes and rivers dramatically change the salinity levels in these bodies? If all of the surviving animals on earth came from the ark at Mt. Ararat, would they not have to somehow get back to their natural environments around the world?

Your response does nothing to refute anything that I stated above.

[Zzyzx]

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I do not have to be an expert in physics, biology, etc. to understand that one can't fit over a million species in a single wooden boat, much less keep them all alive for the entire alleged time of the flood. Nor do I have to be an expert to recognize that there is no geological evidence for the trillions of tons of water that magically appeared in the hydrosphere of earth and then magically disappeared. Nor the fact that the massive changes in salinity in the water would have killed off all ocean and freshwater life. Nor that there is no reasonable explanation how a million plus species migrated from Mt. Ararat to all seven continents across oceans and the extreme variety of environmental conditions between Asia Minor and their "homes".

All that is required is common sense.

That's quite the flood story, the one I usually refer to is found in the book of Genesis.

So what exactly do you deem inaccurate about my interpretation of the Genesis flood account. Did God not include two of every species of animal in the ark? Was there not a great flood of water so great that it covered all of the mountains of the world? Wouldn't a massive increase in water that enveloped both oceans and freshwater lakes and rivers dramatically change the salinity levels in these bodies? If all of the surviving animals on earth came from the ark at Mt. Ararat, would they not have to somehow get back to their natural environments around the world?

Your response does nothing to refute anything that I stated above.

The "literally true" genesis account as quoted by forum admin in Head to Head:

Here are the relevant verses:

Genesis - Chapter 6

Gen 6:5 ¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9 ¶ These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Gen 6:11 ¶ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:14 ¶ Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Gen 6:15 And this [is the fashion] which thou shalt make it [of]: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

Gen 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.

Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather [it] to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Gen 6:22 ¶ Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Genesis - Chapter 7

Gen 7:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Gen 7:6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13 ¶ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Gen 7:17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Genesis - Chapter 8

Gen 8:1 ¶ And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that [was] with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;

Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Gen 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

Gen 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Gen 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth [month], on the first [day] of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

Gen 8:6 ¶ And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

Gen 8:7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

Gen 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Gen 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth [was] an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Gen 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

Gen 8:13 ¶ And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

Gen 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Gen 8:15 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, saying,

Gen 8:16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that [is] with thee, of all flesh, [both] of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

Gen 8:18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:

Gen 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, [and] whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

Gen 8:20 ¶ And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Genesis - Chapter 9

Gen 9:1 ¶ And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

Gen 9:8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that [is] with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Gen 9:12 And God said, This [is] the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that [is] with you, for perpetual generations:

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.

Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth.

Gen 9:18 ¶ And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham [is] the father of Canaan.

Gen 9:19 These [are] the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

[Openmind]

A noticeable lack of answers now arises.

[Cephus]

Is anyone really surprised? McCulloch called it at the beginning of the thread, nobody is going to even try to answer the issues because there are no intelligent answers. You'll just get mindless sheep going "God did it!" but that's about it.

[Fisherking]

Did God not include two of every [strike]species[/strike][kind] of animal in the ark?

"Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive"

Was there not a great flood of water so great that it covered all of the mountains of the world?

Sure, does it specify the size of the mountains before and after the flood?

Wouldn't a massive increase in water that enveloped both oceans and freshwater lakes and rivers dramatically change the salinity levels in these bodies?

What were the salinity levels at that time?

If all of the surviving animals on earth came from the ark at Mt. Ararat, would they not have to somehow get back to their natural environments around the world?

What were their natural environments? Did their natural environments even exist after the flood?

nobody is going to even try to answer the issues because there are no intelligent answers.

Maybe there are no intelligent questions to give intelligent answers to

[Metatron]

Did God not include two of every [strike]species[/strike][kind] of animal in the ark?

"Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive"

Yes, the ancient Hebrews did not have the word "species" since they did not have a scientific classification system. (These are after all the same people (and God apparently) who thought that bats were birds.) So perhaps you would be so kind as to define the word "kind". Are you maintaining that Noah did not save two of all of the world's animals in his ark? If not, where did they come from? Surely they did not all EVOLVE from some base species (or "kinds") that were saved?

Was there not a great flood of water so great that it covered all of the mountains of the world?

Sure, does it specify the size of the mountains before and after the flood?

Doesn't matter. Even if we were to assume (based on absolutely nothing I might add) that for some inexplicable reason all of the world's mountains were small by mountain standards, the water required to cover them would still be enormous and would exert incredible pressure which could not help but be observed by geologists.

Are you claiming that the Himalayas, the Andes, etc. were all thrust up many thousands of feet sometime after the Flood? On what is this conjecture base on?

Wouldn't a massive increase in water that enveloped both oceans and freshwater lakes and rivers dramatically change the salinity levels in these bodies?

What were the salinity levels at that time?

Who cares? Salt water fish require a particular level of salinity in the water to survive. Fresh water fish cannot live in salt water. A massive world wide flood would radically change the salt level in the oceans killing salt water fish. A massive world wide flood would cause oceans to merge with existing fresh water sources thus increasing their salinity level to poisonous levels for fresh water fish. All fish on earth would be dead.

If all of the surviving animals on earth came from the ark at Mt. Ararat, would they not have to somehow get back to their natural environments around the world?

What were their natural environments? Did their natural environments even exist after the flood?

What are you talking about? You don't recognize that there is a difference between the natural environment that a penguin lives in versus a tiger? One lives in an arctic type of environment while the other lives in a tropical environment. Neither of these environments existed at Mt. Ararat.

Apparently, the aforementioned penguin and tiger had to travel from Asia Minor for thousands of miles across oceans and/or environments they were ill-suited for in order to get to their present locations. Not to mention that two of every "kind" had to make this trip from their natural environments to where ever Noah was building his ark.

nobody is going to even try to answer the issues because there are no intelligent answers.

Maybe there are no intelligent questions to give intelligent answers to

Or maybe the Biblical flood story is a myth lifted from the Epic of Gilgamesh which predates it.

[Zzyzx]

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Did God not include two of every [strike]species[/strike][kind] of animal in the ark?

"Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive"

Does the quote you supply indicate that animals came to the vicinity of the ark? Does that include animals of very limited mobility, those of microscopic size, those of very brief lifetimes, those that are adapted to very specific and limited environments?

Was there not a great flood of water so great that it covered all of the mountains of the world?

Sure, does it specify the size of the mountains before and after the flood?

We can observe and measure the size of mountains presently existing on the Earth. Those who propose that they were significantly different a few thousand years ago are expected to support their theories.

Would you care to attempt to do so in a Head to Head debate?

Wouldn't a massive increase in water that enveloped both oceans and freshwater lakes and rivers dramatically change the salinity levels in these bodies?

What were the salinity levels at that time?

It is not possible to calculate the salinity levels of a vague and/or imaginary event. It is safe to maintain that changes in the volume of water in the Earth’s oceans without addition of salt would change the salinity.

Those who propose that the Earth was flooded might be well advised to study the effects such proposed flooding would have upon salinity (it is their story) and upon freshwater species.

Creationists and other proponents of the literal flood base their arguments upon scripture (Bronze Age storytellers’ tales) rather than upon actual study of the fields of biology, meteorology, climatology, archeology, etc.

Evidently religionists assume that study of a single book is adequate preparation to “understand” and debate complex matters that other mortals spend entire careers learning and researching.

If all of the surviving animals on earth came from the ark at Mt. Ararat, would they not have to somehow get back to their natural environments around the world?

What were their natural environments? Did their natural environments even exist after the flood?

That is a question that MUST be answered by those who propose that the flood occurred. Would you care to try?

nobody is going to even try to answer the issues because there are no intelligent answers.

Maybe there are no intelligent questions to give intelligent answers to

There are many intelligent questions that must be ducked by religionists because there are no rational answers that do not discredit their theories -- as readers are quite able to see. Refusing to address questions demonstrates the lack of validity of the “literal flood” proponents – and thereby their entire belief system based on tales told by Bronze Age storytellers – tales of invisible supernatural beings, of incredible magic tricks (including flooding the Earth – and “rising from the dead”) which cannot be substantiated.

[Easyrider]

Creationists and other proponents of the literal flood base their arguments upon scripture (Bronze Age storytellers’ tales) rather than upon actual study of the fields of biology, meteorology, climatology, archeology, etc.

Nuts. There's scientists in various scientific fields on both sides of the issue who investigate physical data.

Evidently religionists assume that study of a single book is adequate preparation to “understand” and debate complex matters that other mortals spend entire careers learning and researching.

A gross overgeneralization that has no merit in reality.

There are many intelligent questions that must be ducked by religionists because there are no rational answers that do not discredit their theories -- as readers are quite able to see.

Another gross (and self-serving, IMO) overgeneralization. For every argument you make that is anti-Biblical I suspect there are more than a few highly qualified theists who would be glad to take you on.

[Metatron]

Creationists and other proponents of the literal flood base their arguments upon scripture (Bronze Age storytellers’ tales) rather than upon actual study of the fields of biology, meteorology, climatology, archeology, etc.

Nuts. There's scientists in various scientific fields on both sides of the issue who investigate physical data.

Evidently religionists assume that study of a single book is adequate preparation to “understand” and debate complex matters that other mortals spend entire careers learning and researching.

A gross overgeneralization that has no merit in reality.

There are many intelligent questions that must be ducked by religionists because there are no rational answers that do not discredit their theories -- as readers are quite able to see.

Another gross (and self-serving, IMO) overgeneralization. For every argument you make that is anti-Biblical I suspect there are more than a few highly qualified theists who would be glad to take you on.

So who are these "highly qualified theists" and when are they going to show up and start knocking off some of the absurdities listed in the OP? I have yet to see anything resembling a reasoned argument thus far.