Is Jesus really God? Did he actually claim to be God?

[McCulloch]

If Jesus claimed to be God, he either was, or wasn't. There is no third option. If he was who he claimed to be, then a lot of mystery is solved. I can't think of any issue that could be more pertinent to the discussion of origins.

Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?
Is it possible that the words put into Jesus' mouth by the Gospel writers were not always the ones that he spoke?

[teddy_trueblood]

Odon,

If you are saying that only YHWH (the Father alone) is God, and Jesus is not God, but is the first creation of God who was sent to earth to teach and provide a sacrifice to save all who would accept it and follow him, then we are in agreement on this essential knowledge (John 17:3).

There are a few things I disagree with, however. Here are some:

I understand God from the Bible (and from His creation) that He 'Is', AND what He said "I Am that I Am".

The Hebrew word rendered I AM at Exodus 3:14 in most trinitarian Bibles is Ehyeh. This word is rendered as I AM in these Trinitarian Bibles only in this verse. Every other use of Ehyeh in all the writings of Moses is translated as I will be. For much more on this see:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... rt-3.html

The Son, (whom God named the 'Word') is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I thought you agreed that firstborn over is a clear mistranslation. Why you continue to use it is confusing to me. There are a number of other Bibles available on line. Heres one source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Grammatically and scripturally John 1:1c should be rendered: And the Word was a god.

See: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... r_21.html

And http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... tudy.html

Ted

[arian]

Odon,

If you are saying that only YHWH (the Father alone) is God, and Jesus is not God, but is the first creation of God who was sent to earth to teach and provide a sacrifice to save all who would accept it and follow him, then we are in agreement on this essential knowledge (John 17:3).

There are a few things I disagree with, however. Here are some:

I understand God from the Bible (and from His creation) that He 'Is', AND what He said "I Am that I Am".

The Hebrew word rendered I AM at Exodus 3:14 in most trinitarian Bibles is Ehyeh. This word is rendered as I AM in these Trinitarian Bibles only in this verse. Every other use of Ehyeh in all the writings of Moses is translated as I will be. For much more on this see:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... rt-3.html

So it's "I will be that I Am"? Or "I will be that I will be?" Sometimes I wish God spoke English, so we would not depend on modern scholars to reinterpret the Bible to us.

Teddy, if I may ask; how do you understand what God really said to Moses when He sent him to free his people? Thanks.

The Son, (whom God named the 'Word') is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I thought you agreed that firstborn over is a clear mistranslation. Why you continue to use it is confusing to me. There are a number of other Bibles available on line. Heres one source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/

Sorry, In my mind I had it right, so I missed that, but you are right, the NKJV is different than even the KJV;

Col 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
KJV

Col 1:15
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
ASV

Col 1:15
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
NASB

Col 1:16-17
17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together.
NLT

Col 1:17
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
RSV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Grammatically and scripturally John 1:1c should be rendered: And the Word was a god.

See: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... r_21.html

And http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... tudy.html

Ted

Yes I remember you pointed that out to me also, "and the Word was a god". which makes more sense, and still leaves GOD as One. So starting with the Word (a god), through Him GOD creates man, who are also referred to as gods.

John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
RSV

And the Word was still 'begotten of GOD' as Eve was begotten, or taken out of Adam. Is that how you understand it also?

Odon

[BryanBADD]

Did Jesus claim to be God?

Never. He did mention that it is written that we are all gods, for we were created in Gods image;

Jesus clearly states that He is God.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

How much clearer can He say it?

Also, in John 14:9 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?

Again, that seems pretty clear to me.

[teddy_trueblood]

Arian:

So it's "I will be that I Am"? Or "I will be that I will be?" Sometimes I wish God spoke English, so we would not depend on modern scholars to reinterpret the Bible to us.

Teddy, if I may ask; how do you understand what God really said to Moses when He sent him to free his people? Thanks.

Most Bibles render Ex. 3:14 as I Am What I Am which in Hebrew is Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. A number of trinitarian scholars have stated that this should read I will be what I will be (or I will become whatever I will become). But I figure that the best way to see how ehyeh should be translated is to find every other instance of its use in the rest of Moses writings and then see how they are translated in all Bibles.

Here is what I found:


Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh][ with you" NRSV)


Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Deuteronomy 31:23 (Moses: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)

I see no reason for translating Ex. 3:14 as I am (other than the trinitarian use of it in conjunction with John 8:58 as one of their best proofs).

Here is an honest rendering of Ex. 3:14:

God said to Moses, I will be whatever I will be; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I will be has sent me to you.' "

[Shermana]

Jesus clearly states that He is God.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

So explain John 17:21, "let them be one as we are one". Are the disciples G-d too?

How much clearer can He say it?

What's clear is that those who use this verse haven't read John 17:21.

Also, in John 14:9 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?

Quote the rest of the passage, you'll see Yashua is saying not quite what you think. He is the representative of the Father.

PS If Jesus even was saying he's the Father, that would specifically go against the Classical definnition of the Trinity, and would be Modalism, which most Trinitarian argument tends to fall under.

"The Son is not the Father"

[arian]

Did Jesus claim to be God?

Never. He did mention that it is written that we are all gods, for we were created in Gods image;

Jesus clearly states that He is God.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

How much clearer can He say it?

Yes, ... as we too shall, or are to become one with GOD, through Jesus.

Do you believe that you must be born again, or in no ways will you enter that Eternal Kingdom?

Also, in John 14:9 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?

Again, that seems pretty clear to me.

Yes, and the Catholic (and the other denominations of) religions will show you even deeper meanings to those verses. That is just one of the reasons they keep 'man on the cross idols', or pictures of a blond-blue eyed pretty boy, angel of light in their churches (and the other denominations on that holyday on December 25th) because of the belief that one must 'see' God. Since they made Jesus God, and Mary the Mother of God, and since Jesus is gone, how will they "see Me" (Jesus) without an idol?

The Father part is taken care of also, ... it is the Holy father the Pope.

Also, the idols help the priests 'summon' the spirits of those idols (man on the cross, the Mother with a baby in her arm, the Christmas Trees and hundreds of other idols) into the round crackers and the wine they give to their worshipers, where they time and again nail our Lord Jesus to the tree/cross, shedding His blood over and ever again, thus denying the gift, the sacrifice that was made 'once and for all' for everyone who believes.

I pray that you would 'see' the relevance of Jesus Words, for those words ar not His, but His Fathers in Heaven.

Satan has risen to full power and the Scriptures have been fulfilled. The leaders of the World all bow to the 'son of perdition' and his influence has perverted even the most sincere, open your eyes my dear friend!

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

[arian]

Arian:

So it's "I will be that I Am"? Or "I will be that I will be?" Sometimes I wish God spoke English, so we would not depend on modern scholars to reinterpret the Bible to us.

Teddy, if I may ask; how do you understand what God really said to Moses when He sent him to free his people? Thanks.

Most Bibles render Ex. 3:14 as I Am What I Am which in Hebrew is Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. A number of trinitarian scholars have stated that this should read I will be what I will be (or I will become whatever I will become). But I figure that the best way to see how ehyeh should be translated is to find every other instance of its use in the rest of Moses writings and then see how they are translated in all Bibles.

Here is what I found:


Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh][ with you" NRSV)


Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Deuteronomy 31:23 (Moses: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)

I see no reason for translating Ex. 3:14 as I am (other than the trinitarian use of it in conjunction with John 8:58 as one of their best proofs).

Here is an honest rendering of Ex. 3:14:

God said to Moses, I will be whatever I will be; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I will be has sent me to you.' "

Thank you again.

I have one problem using "I will be", please let me explain;

2 Cor 6:16-18
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
KJV

God has 'chosen' Jacob (Israel) and was His God, not 'will be his God'.
God told Moses;

Ex 3:6
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
KJV

He DID NOT say: "I will be the God of Agraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob"

So in light of this and the REST of the Bible in English (I'm no Hebrew scholar) God in my understanding will remain "I Am", and for those yet to seek Him, He "will be" their God once they accept Him into their hearts and minds, just as explained in 2 Cor 6:16-18

Thanks my friend.

[earl]

For Jesus to be God he would have to be,among other characteristics, omnipresent,omnipotent and omniscient.

Jesus never said he is his Father.Other's said it.He did say they are one.And the comparrisons go on.

However ,Jesus never said,If you hear my voice you have heard the Father.
He stated that no one had heard his Father's voice neither has anyone seen hthe Father.John,John the baptist ,Paul all support this .
'Spiritually' Jesus qualifies as God,a representation of God.
'Actually' Jesus does not because of the 3 'O's above and the Father's voice no one has heard.
There is however a Trinity.

[arian]

For Jesus to be God he would have to be,among other characteristics, omnipresent,omnipotent and omniscient.

Jesus never said he is his Father.Other's said it.He did say they are one.And the comparrisons go on.

However ,Jesus never said,If you hear my voice you have heard the Father.
He stated that no one had heard his Father's voice neither has anyone seen hthe Father.John,John the baptist ,Paul all support this .
'Spiritually' Jesus qualifies as God,a representation of God.
'Actually' Jesus does not because of the 3 'O's above and the Father's voice no one has heard.
There is however a Trinity.

Yes, ... 'trinity' as in Theism. Theism as in 'one God or gods not necessarily from the Bible. Theism was a word before Christ, the worshipers of the pagan god, or gods were called theists, and those that refused to worship those god or gods were called 'atheists'.

When Daniel did not bow to 'A god' (an image of the king), he was thrown in the lions den. After God saved him, ... the King ordered everyone to worship 'DANIELS GOD', not any of his 'theistic god or gods.' There was a clear distinction made between the gods of that time and the GOD of Daniel, just as GOD made that distinction to Moses, as 'I Am' the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. And also, ... these ar not three gods one for each person, but ONE.

There however is NO 'triune-god' in "I Am".

[catalyst]

Arian:

So it's "I will be that I Am"? Or "I will be that I will be?" Sometimes I wish God spoke English, so we would not depend on modern scholars to reinterpret the Bible to us.

Teddy, if I may ask; how do you understand what God really said to Moses when He sent him to free his people? Thanks.

Most Bibles render Ex. 3:14 as I Am What I Am which in Hebrew is Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. A number of trinitarian scholars have stated that this should read I will be what I will be (or I will become whatever I will become). But I figure that the best way to see how ehyeh should be translated is to find every other instance of its use in the rest of Moses writings and then see how they are translated in all Bibles.

Here is what I found:


Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh][ with you" NRSV)


Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)


Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be [ehyeh] with your mouth" NRSV)


Deuteronomy 31:23 (Moses: "I will be [ehyeh] with you" NRSV)

I see no reason for translating Ex. 3:14 as I am (other than the trinitarian use of it in conjunction with John 8:58 as one of their best proofs).

Here is an honest rendering of Ex. 3:14:

God said to Moses, I will be whatever I will be; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I will be has sent me to you.' "

I just wanted to touch on one thing here.

Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh is actually I am THAT I am. Interestingly too Asherah is the name of a GODDESS. ...female form.

As such, the above COULD well translate to I AM WOMAN, I AM. Perhaps throughout time, with misogynistic "mindset" over time, has given "GOD" it a masculine gender role.

Carry on.



Catalyst.