Is Jesus really God? Did he actually claim to be God?

[McCulloch]

If Jesus claimed to be God, he either was, or wasn't. There is no third option. If he was who he claimed to be, then a lot of mystery is solved. I can't think of any issue that could be more pertinent to the discussion of origins.

Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?
Is it possible that the words put into Jesus' mouth by the Gospel writers were not always the ones that he spoke?

[Composer]

Not forgetting either -

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts.
p. 160

In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title Lord conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the Word as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well"the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine person in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the power and wisdom that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed what there was from the beginning.35

The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged God-things. The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiahs actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had sons or offspring. It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus God. He called him the Son of God in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed Gods powers and spirit, which manifested Gods activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.36

Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.37 This inner attitude is the Kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed: (RED Bold Text by Composer)
p. 161 - (How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

35 Armstrong, History of God, p. 89.
36 Armstrong, History of God, p. 83.
37 Armstrong, History of God, p. 82.


. . . . Thats why Jesus could say repeatedly, Greater things than I do will you do. (p. 162) - (Composer adds: John 14:12 KJV Story book)

So for starters, tell us with any attached alleged Story book evidence, how mere mortals can do ' greater works/things ' than your alleged trinitarian ' Fully godman jesus? '.

[Malachi-Zede-El]

Reminds me of the derivation of sayings, like when this Story book alleged trinitarian christian jesus went for a crap, is that how the term ' holy-crap ' came about?

Evidence against that is?

He over ate !!

[teddy_trueblood]

Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?
Is it possible that the words put into Jesus' mouth by the Gospel writers were not always the ones that he spoke?

Jesus' words in the Gospels were never a claim to be God. There are interpretations of a few of his words by trinitarians which appear to be hints of such a thing, but never a clear statement of such a tremendous change from the religion he and his disciples practiced.

[Flail]

Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?
Is it possible that the words put into Jesus' mouth by the Gospel writers were not always the ones that he spoke?

Jesus' words in the Gospels were never a claim to be God. There are interpretations of a few of his words by trinitarians which appear to be hints of such a thing, but never a clear statement of such a tremendous change from the religion he and his disciples practiced.

Agreed. And, IMO, if Jesus were alive today he would never consent to being labeled a Christian. His teachings were antithetical to those of Paul and the later invented Church.

[Shermana]

Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?
Is it possible that the words put into Jesus' mouth by the Gospel writers were not always the ones that he spoke?

Jesus' words in the Gospels were never a claim to be God. There are interpretations of a few of his words by trinitarians which appear to be hints of such a thing, but never a clear statement of such a tremendous change from the religion he and his disciples practiced.

Agreed. And, IMO, if Jesus were alive today he would never consent to being labeled a Christian. His teachings were antithetical to those of Paul and the later invented Church.

Flail, you seem to understand Jesus better than almost anyone I've seen on this board.

(And major props to Teddy as well)

As for whether Jesus was "God", this concept is evidenced as built after the late 2nd century. The problem lies in misinterpretation of what the Greek says. One has to wonder why there's spurious interpolations like 1 James 5:7 and the KJV rendition of 1 Timothy 3:16, it seems quite obvious that a picture was trying to be painted...with force.

The Arians (rightly) read John 1:1 as "A god was the word". Part of the problem is that few seem willing to understand what the word "god" actually means, especially in its anarthrous state. Angels are clearly called gods throughout the Psalms as well as in places like where Moses sees the Burning Bush. I also notice that many who think they are Trinitarian are actually more on the lines of Modalism. This 'modalist" understanding is perhaps why certain Trinitarian authorities prefer to translate John 1:1c as "And the word was Divine", recognizing the problematic (Sabbellian) result of "God was the word".

Also, Justin Martyr called Jesus "A god" with the Anarthrous Theos as well. It seems that the concept of deifying Jesus did not begin until well after the 2nd century, as even Justin called Jesus "An angel".

It helps if one is acquainted with Philo's "Logos Theology", as well as the "Apocryphal" Book Wisdom of Solomon (which was apparently used by the Dead Sea Scroll community) which basically states that "Wisdom" (the meaning of "Logos") Was more than just a metaphor, but an actual personified being, the firstborn creation of G-d, the Co-creator. With this in mind, the book of "John" becomes much more clear.

[teddy_trueblood]

Also, Justin Martyr called Jesus "A god" with the Anarthrous Theos as well. It seems that the concept of deifying Jesus did not begin until well after the 2nd century, as even Justin called Jesus An angel.

It helps if one is acquainted with Philo's Logos Theology

Origen also called angels gods and also included Jesus as one (albeit, the first and highest of them all).

For a look at Philos Logos (and how John developed it to fit his Prologue) see
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... word.html

"Let everything that hath breath praise Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah." - Ps. 150:6, ASV.

[arian]

Sorry but I did not get an e-mail that this post continued, or I might have lost it??

Did Jesus claim to be God?

Never. He did mention that it is written that we are all gods, for we were created in Gods image;

John 10:34-39
34 Jesus answered, "It is written in your own Law that God said, 'You are gods.' 35 We know that what the scripture says is true forever; and God called those people gods, the people to whom his message was given.

36 As for me, the Father chose me and sent me into the world. How, then, can you say that I blaspheme because I said that I am the Son of God?

37 Do not believe me, then, if I am not doing the things my Father wants me to do. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father."

39 Once more they tried to seize Jesus, but he slipped out of their hands.
TEV

Why did GOD create an 'image' of himself from the 'dust of the earth' when we know GOD is Spirit and no one has seen God?

Why did God send His Son as an ordinary human of lowly estate to reveal more of himself to us than what He already has through his Prophets?

In both cases, what we see (Adam) and what we saw (Jesus) in either case, not what God IS, ... sorry Joseph Smith, because this physical cannot inherit eternal life.

GOD begot His Son and called him His Word, and created a place for him in Heaven. He provided for him a Heavenly body to reside in, .. something with perspective.

God IS All things and all times and all moments, and He knows all things, in all times, and all moments. He created 'bodies' so the Begotten Son could react with the created, both in Heaven and in this universe. So we may have perspective, for we are not GOD, but created beings.
God is the source of being, not a 'being' Himself. GOD IS.

Rom 11:33-36
33 How great are God's riches! How deep are his wisdom and knowledge! Who can explain his decisions? Who can understand his ways? 34 As the scripture says,

"Who knows the mind of the Lord?
Who is able to give him advice?
35 Who has ever given him anything,
so that he had to pay it back?"

36 For all things were created by him, and all things exist through him and for him.
To God be the glory forever! Amen.
TEV

God IS. For all things were created by him, and all things exist through him and for him

And the Begotten Son:

Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

By God all things are created, by, through and for the Son. Unlike GOD, we all were given bodies. All created which includes all those Heavenly creatures and Angels, and even the Begotten Son has a form, a body; "There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body."

This is not 'Spirit', but a Spiritual body' that we'll soon get:

1 Cor 15:52-53
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
NKJV

It will happen this way:

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.

43 When buried, it is ugly and weak; when raised, it will be beautiful and strong. 44 When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body.
There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body.

45 For the scripture says, "The first man, Adam, was created a living being"; but the last Adam is the life-giving Spirit. 46 It is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first Adam, made of earth, came from the earth; the second Adam came from heaven.

48 Those who belong to the earth are like the one who was made of earth; those who are of heaven are like the one who came from heaven. 49 Just as we wear the likeness of the man made of earth, so we will wear the likeness of the Man from heaven.

50 What I mean, brothers, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom, and what is mortal cannot possess immortality.TEV

There is something GOD wants us to do, something that is beyond mans physical ability, or understanding. We have to waken our spiritual minds up, for; "What I mean, brothers, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom, and what is mortal cannot possess immortality"

Since we cannot 'see' God, He gave us a good 'image' that kind of sums Him up if God could be placed in a body, 'the first Adam'.

Through the first Adam, He sent his Son, who became flesh and blood, that He may reveal another aspect of Himself, His Character. Jesus represents the character of God, .. and His Character is 'Love'.

Imagine the universe, then imagine how Awesome God must be, and yet in both cases, He reveals Himself as lowly as the dust of the earth (Adam) and with a loving and forgiving character of a servant (Jesus).

How can anyone not love such a God as our God IS?

No one will ever be able to see God in His totality, for all created beings and things are a part of God, and so are all moments, past, present and future all in God, so for a created being, it is impossible to see God other then in the idea of 'knowing Him'. We shall be more and more ONE with Him, that is 'knowing Him' and in one mind, one will with Him.

Those that deny God (oppose Him) will be placed in isolation from HIM whom they did not want a part of. There is NO escape, for there is no other place we can go. God is IT, and we're here to stay, one way or another, hell or Heaven, so choose wisely.

Our debates here is 'proof' of another realm where anything is possible. If I can imagine a black hole (not that I believe they exist), then I can also travel through it, faster then the imagined speed of light (I don't believe light has speed either).

Our mind is proof of that 'spiritual realm' that cannot be seen with the naked eye, yet we do 'see' with our spiritual eyes. We understand, we comprehand we 'see what someone means'. We can also feel with our minds, be hurt and to be happy.

We can also kill this spiritual mind, ... by 'choosing' to believe that what we see with our physical eyes is 'all that is'. That when we die, that's it.

Look in a coffin and observe the dead body, and ask yourself; "Where is the 'person' I knew so well?" Is that him/her laying there in silence? Fine, .. than take him home with you.

Come now, ... you know he is gone, ... everyone knows he is gone, ...
... but where?

Will you say: "He is right here, laying in the coffin!" ???

Nope, ... not if you are even half way honest, you 'know' he is gone, and in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed and stand before the judgement seat of Christ. Those on His right, will enter the eternal Kingdom and enjoy eternity with Him with GOD, but those on His left, ... well I'm sure you know the rest.

[teddy_trueblood]

36 For all things were created by him, and all things exist through him and for him.
To God be the glory forever! Amen.
TEV

W. E. Vine tells us the instrumental use of the NT Greek word en (or ) may be intended to mean with and by means of. - p. 1271, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 1983.

Thayer agrees with this instrumental meaning of (en):

d. of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished , where we say with, by means of, by (through) " p. 210, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, 1984 printing

Liddell and Scott also tell us about the meanings of :

III. OF THE INSTRUMENT, MEANS OR MANNER " p. 257, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing.

Being instrumental means that which is used by another (the Father in this case) to carry out His wishes or commands. We see elsewhere in scripture that creation was from the Father (God alone) and carried out through Jesus.

This explains why at Col. 1:16, for example: For in [en] him all things were created, as found in the RSV, may also be properly translated For through him (GNB; MLB;AT; C. B. Williams; & Phillips). And, of course, it, like through, can be honestly rendered as By means of him all things were created.

Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

The scriptures never use firstborn as firstborn over [someone/something]. Firstborn always refers to someone or something which was produced first with others to follow. See - http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... /bwf.html

And, in fact, at Col. 1:15, the scriptures actually read firstborn of all creation. Firstborn over all creation is a clear mistranslation.

[inspirationalsayings]

I just finished reading "The case for the real Jesus" by Lee Strobel - excellent work.

[arian]

36 For all things were created by him, and all things exist through him and for him.
To God be the glory forever! Amen.
TEV

W. E. Vine tells us the instrumental use of the NT Greek word en (or ) may be intended to mean with and by means of. - p. 1271, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 1983.

Thayer agrees with this instrumental meaning of (en):

d. of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished , where we say with, by means of, by (through) " p. 210, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, 1984 printing

Liddell and Scott also tell us about the meanings of :

III. OF THE INSTRUMENT, MEANS OR MANNER " p. 257, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing.

Being instrumental means that which is used by another (the Father in this case) to carry out His wishes or commands. We see elsewhere in scripture that creation was from the Father (God alone) and carried out through Jesus.

This explains why at Col. 1:16, for example: For in [en] him all things were created, as found in the RSV, may also be properly translated For through him (GNB; MLB;AT; C. B. Williams; & Phillips). And, of course, it, like through, can be honestly rendered as By means of him all things were created.

Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

The scriptures never use firstborn as firstborn over [someone/something]. Firstborn always refers to someone or something which was produced first with others to follow. See - http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... /bwf.html

And, in fact, at Col. 1:15, the scriptures actually read firstborn of all creation. Firstborn over all creation is a clear mistranslation.

Greetings Teddy.

Thank you for that info, and it does clear up the meaning a bit, but do you believe that could change my perspective, or do you agree with it?

I understand God from the Bible (and from His creation) that He 'Is', AND what He said "I Am that I Am".

He 'IS' I understand as the sum total of everything that has existed and can exist as far as 'created'.

I can better understand this by looking at His image man, and imagining Adam as the only thing that would exist. Not sitting in some empty nothing, or some darkness, but 'nothing' would be outside of Adam, not even some dark, empty 'nothing', but Adam would be IT.

The cells in Adam would be the result of Adams creation, then the organs and so on. Only Adam would not be dependent on those cells nor the organs, ... after all, that is his 'creation', ... I mean, Adam was not dependent on it before he created it, ... right? We can imagine God in a simular way.

But God is more than 'IS' (the source of everything), but also a 'Conscious Being', as He told Moses, ... "I Am".
This does not mean we can 'point God out' from other man-made gods as in the defenition 'theism', GOD is not that kind of being or person. GOD is the 'source of all those created beings'. GOD is the source of everything, who is also 'Conscious of Himself'. He is also the source of our senses to see and feel. God is Love, but this cannot be fathomed by the physical mind, but must be viewed on a much graunder scale, in our spiritual mind, beyond the pain and sorrow we feel and sense around us.

It is a little like the phrase; "I think, so I am", only with GOD it is "I Am, so I think, I create, I destroy, I give life (separate created beings all within Himself) and I take life (that which I have created)."

I agree with your comment: "The scriptures never use firstborn as firstborn over [someone/something]. Firstborn always refers to someone or something which was produced first with others to follow."

Thanks Teddy, and that is exactly how I understand it also.
'Jesus' (the man, the second Adam) was not begotten, but was born of an earthly physical girl named Marry. It was the 'Son' who was begotten in God before 'anything else was ever created in Heaven , or in this universe'. So there really was no 'beginning' with God, for God IS. 'Beginning' started with the 'Son' whose name was 'Word', as in "My Word/Son shall never pass away".

The 'Begotten Son' was the first of all Gods Creations, and then, 'by, through and for him' God created everything, which includes the Heaven (also called Gods throne) and every creature and Angel therein, this physical universe, the earth and from this earth, man.

(Heaven as Gods throne is not to be understood as a place where God lives in, for we know God has resided in a Tent durring Moses time, and now He resides in 'our hearts'. Heaven, as this here universe is IN God as everyone and everything else is.)

The Son, (whom God named the 'Word') is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col 1:15-18

This begotten person, the son of God whose name was 'Word' was with God in the 'beginning' (of all creation), and yes, before the Word (son) was begotten of God, the Word was God, for as the Bible explains, God IS, which means that, everything God has created was God, because everything is 'from Him' and 'in Him'.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV

Now it was the son 'Word' (the first of all creation) who was sent from Heaven, down to earth by Gods power, His Holy Spirit and was transformed into a DNA which God planted in the egg of a virgin Jewish girl named Mary. Now the 'Word' became flesh and dwelt among us;

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
NKJV

This Spiritual begotten son of God the 'Word' who became flesh and was born of 'water (in Maries womb) AND of the Spirit' who brought Him down here, was the one who was named 'Jesus';

Matt 1:20-21
20 While he was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary to be your wife. For it is by the Holy Spirit that she has conceived. 21 She will have a son, and you will name him Jesus " because he will save his people from their sins."
TEV

This is why we must waken our spiritual eyes, so we may 'see' beyond the physical universe which will vanish soon, revealing the 'real', the Spiritual that reside in all created bodies. We should have 'seen/recognized' the 'Son' in Jesus, but man looks only at the physical, and missed the 'real person' of Jesus, the Spiritual Son, the 'Word of God':

John 1:10-11
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
NKJV

God bless you my friend.

Odon