Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

[Justin108]

They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?

If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 14) and we believe it started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/


JW

1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

2. Was 1914 unique in this regard? For example, Luke 21 mentions "wars and uprisings". In what way is 1914 unique in terms of wars and uprisings?

3. According to (my understanding of) Jehovah's Witnesses' claims, Jesus' rule from 1914 is hidden and behind the scenes. His rule is invisible to most of us. Did Jehovah's Witnesses predict that Jesus' rule would be behind the scenes from the start? Or did they initially believe that Jesus' rule will be clearly apparent to everyone, and only after 1914 when no Jesus was to be found did they change their conclusion to "well Jesus must be doing it in heaven where no one can see"?

4. Do you consider the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong and that Jesus did not return in 1914? Or do you believe that it is an indisputable fact that Jesus returned in 1914?

[TRANSPONDER]

You are not getting it, are you? It is for you to prove that your prediction -claims are right. All I have to do is point out why that in not convincing.

(1) it doesn't look at all like the 2nd coming as predicted in the Gospels

(2) It looks just like the sort of events we have seen all through history.

No reason whatsoever to suppose this is prophecy unfolding and a couple of reasons to doubt that it is not Jesus coming back.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are not getting it, are you? It is for you to prove that your prediction -claims are right.

Which "predictions" are you referring to? Do you know?

(1) it doesn't look at all like the 2nd coming as predicted in the Gospels

I cannot see where you are getting the idea that the Jehovahs Witnesses interpretation doesn't look at all like the 2nd coming as predicted in the Gospels. Especially as we don't believe "the second coming" has happened yet.

(2) It looks just like the sort of events we have seen all through history.

From what I can see of our understanding of scripture, what we believe about events exactly match what should be expected to be seen.




JW

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't know whether I'm not explaining myself very well or whether you are being evasive by feigning confusion. You know what weare talking about here:

(1) the past predictions of the end of the world/2nd coming, for which apology was made, so they admitted they got it wrong and made fresh predictions.

(2) The claim (you made, or related) that the predicted end times, second coming or whatever you want to call it, began in 1914 (though as I say, some relate it to the Balfour declaration) and is ongoing. And I remark that this is nothing there resembling the prophecies made in the gospels.

To clarify my position, the second coming on the clouds and graphically predicted, let alone when those alive at the time would still be around to see it, hasn't happened, despite definite predictions, and any attempt to portray current events as prophecy coming true are without credibility.

Bible prophecy, past, present and future is without credibility and my message is, Folks, you can risk your lives, posited afterlives and supposed souls on these peddlers of religions, dogmas and prophecies, promises and threats as having no credibility whatsoever, and we should give them no credit.

It seems that every other post, I'm making some exhortation, but really, these people have Nothing,folks. Not logical, historical or even ethical credibility, for religion. And if the churches and creeds are trying to clean house to make themselves look better it's only because the secular world spoke out. Otherwise their dirty laundry would remain unseen.

"Prove me wrong" as JW tried to pull above, isn't really the point. Past prophecies have been resolved out as false, but something else can be claimed that can't be disproved. But the point is - is there a scrap of a good reason to believe it? It is the Claimant has to validate their case, not the doubter to disprove it. Yet theists constantly seem to think their claims stand as credible until disproven. To put it in terms of hard cash, it isn't the peddlers of cruddy films and TV shows that wreck the Franchise and destroy the heroes that count when they declare that their product is wonderful, but the buyer refusing the product, that debunks that claim,tanks their stock and has them scrabbling for investments(1).

JW, it isn't about proving or disproving anything to you, but pointing out to the browsers (and they are the ones that matter) that a string of failed predictions and passing off whatever happens as prophecy coming true, never mind pretending that you haven't claimed any prophecy at all, which you clearly have, never mind the wriggling (like trying to wrongfoot me with pretending that I was claiming you'd made Luke's prophecy of the kingdom being the appearance of Christianity); - all that hurts your case, not mine.

And you are the spokesperson for JW. Your performance looks like the best that JW apologetics can do.

(1) and it was what they did to Dr Who that provoked the push to abolish the TV license (which is become a scam to allow the BBC to do whatever it likes at public expense).

[JehovahsWitness]

(1) the past predictions of the end of the world/2nd coming, for which apology was made, so they admitted they got it wrong and made fresh predictions.

Jehovahs Witnesses did not say the end of the world would come in 1914 but we did not have a completely accurate understanding of what would happen to Gods servants at that time and that de freely admit.

(2) The claim (you made, or related) that the predicted end times, .... began in 1914 ... is nothing there resembling the prophecies made in the gospels.

Identifying 1914 as the beginning of the end times is a scripturally sound conclusion (the date itself isn't calculated from the gospels). We do believe the "end times" began in 1914 and that ressembles the prophecies made in the gospels.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LAST DAYS , THE 2ND COMING and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

[TRANSPONDER]

(1) the past predictions of the end of the world/2nd coming, for which apology was made, so they admitted they got it wrong and made fresh predictions.

Jehovahs Witnesses did not say the end of the world would come in 1914 but we did not have a completely accurate understanding of what would happen to Gods servants at that time and that de freely admit.

(2) The claim (you made, or related) that the predicted end times, .... began in 1914 ... is nothing there resembling the prophecies made in the gospels.

Identifying 1914 as the beginning of the end times is a scripturally sound conclusion (the date itself isn't calculated from the gospels). We do believe the "end times" began in 1914 and that ressembles the prophecies made in the gospels.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LAST DAYS , THE 2ND COMING and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

Ok. I'm maybe misled by the previous predictions (prophecies) as 'end of the world'. That can alsomean 'end of the world as we know it, Jesus coming and ruling the earth.This also runs with somewho beleive peoplego straight to heaven to be judged and the end of the world willdo the same thing.I'm not here to be quizzed on what people'seschatological belies are but whether anything of that prophecy is credible.

I (for once) checked you links The first one was simply 'Things will happen and they always happen!!'

"Wah!! Prohecy!!"

The second is worth quoting

Re: Why does Jesus not make himself obvious today?
Post #27
Post by JehovahsWitness » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:58 am

Continued from to post #26 by JehovahsWitness

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

Quote from you, or so it seemed.

THE RETURN OF CHRIST /THE SECOND COMING : The climatic event of the Great Tribulation when Christ judges the wicked. It is immediately followed by the War of Harmageddon when wicked humans are killed of and Satan and the demons are defeated.

2nd coming (as it's called and 'end of the world (event) if only 'as we know it'.

This is NOT what we are seeing (with or without the coming on clouds promise) and passing off events since either 1914 or the resolve to set up the state of Israel (as someclaim),it doesn't credibly look like prediction or prophecy.

The third link was some semantic fiddling about the term. They are broadly synonyms, but one may claim to be worked out from evidence: dates and scripture and the other vouchsafed by divine revelation. Please yourself. It is a really irrelevant niggle.

So the conclusion seems to be what I said - these predictions/prophecies of the 'End Times were wrong and admitted to be wrong and the claim that it started between WWI and after WWII is just trying to avoid any more embarrassing failures by making it so broad and devoid of anything out of the ordinary that it has no credibility, son, and nobody will credit this unless they really want to or they have only been exposed to the JW spin.

My aim is to show how poor this prophecy/prediction is and based on miserable failure.

It is (as Holmes speaks),'my mission'.

[JehovahsWitness]

Quote from you, or so it seemed.

THE RETURN OF CHRIST /THE SECOND COMING : The climatic event of the Great Tribulation when Christ judges the wicked. It is immediately followed by the War of Harmageddon when wicked humans are killed of and Satan and the demons are defeated.

This is NOT what we are seeing ...

Of course not, we believe it is a future event. How can you say de are not seeing something that hasn't happened yet?





JW

[TRANSPONDER]

You are still not getting it. It is for you to show that it IS what we are seeing and I'm arguing that it is not.That does not mean that I can disprove that the prophecies of Bible and JW's are coming about over the last 100 years, but I can say that this is NOT what we are seeing. We are seeing the sort of stuff that Humans do everywhere going on and there is no reason whatsoever to credit the JW claims that Biblical prophecy is panning out. I already pointed to the link to the ludicrous 'wars and rumours of wars'

"Cars will fail to operate properly, prices will rise, and people will not be able to find the possessions that they saw but yesterday!"

"Whah!! Prophecy!!"

You would not of course declare that YOU are personally convinced (never mind doctrinally ) as that means nothing, nor that I am personally unconvinced. It is for YOU to show that anything going on over the last century really convincingly looks like Bible prophecy unfolding.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are still not getting it. It is for you to show that it IS what we are seeing ...

Even if we don't believe that IS what we are seeing?

We dont believe we are seeing Jesus return to judge the world. Are you telling me I must show you we are seeing Jesus return to judge the earth when we dont believe Jesus has returned to judge the world?

• We believe Jesus became King unseen in heaven in 1914. That is based on bible chronology.

• We believe Jesus will return to destroy the wicked at some future unknown date.

What exactly in the above are you asking me to show you?


JW

[TRANSPONDER]

No. I'm saying that to claim that Bible prophecy is playing out right now, you have to show some better reason than just the usual stuff happening that always did. You can't do it by demanding that I disprove it or by forcing a strawman demand (Jesus must be appearing right now) on me. Why is there any practical reason to credit your claim (or the JW claim,if you prefer) that prophecy is panning out right now? Especially as they got it wrong every time up to now, and that merely adds an element of cynical deceptiveness to having it happen with a 100 years of normal stuff.

And hopefully to focus on the actual 'evidence'and no more red herrings, let me say (as I so often have to during a 2nd stage apologetics exchange (1) trying to stuff my mouth with straw arguments only makes you and your case look bad, not me.

(1) the third being 'sauce'. Trying to start a row, scrape a draw, engineer a flounce, or just the Deep Dive.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm saying that to claim that Bible prophecy is playing out right now, you have to show some better reason than just the usual stuff happening that always did.

I have made no claim apart from the claim that I have a faith based belief. Did you not read when I said ...

PLEASE NOTE I make no claims here, I am simply expressing what I believe based on the bible. Please take all sentences to be preceeded by the premise "I believe ..."

• We believe Jesus became King unseen in heaven in 1914. That is based on bible chronology.

• We believe Jesus will return to destroy the wicked at some future unknown date.

...you have to show some better reason than just the usual stuff happening that always did.

I don't have to show you anything at all.

There is no rule that says anyone has to prove anything. If someone insists you must prove something, challenge them where is it a requirement on the forum that something needs to be proved.

I have made my faith statements based on the bible*, take it or leave it.

[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses