Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?
If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?
Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
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Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #81[Replying to post 79 by Justin108]
If you're gonna compare apples to apples then do so, don't start to exaggerate. How many serial killers do you honestly think would make it to heaven? Is your average sinner comparable to a serial killer? Of course not. The reason I compare it to money is because:
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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. Have patience with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything.
27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
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And that works fine for me, seeing as im willing to accept His gift for my sins and Hes more than willing to pay for my sins.
If you're gonna compare apples to apples then do so, don't start to exaggerate. How many serial killers do you honestly think would make it to heaven? Is your average sinner comparable to a serial killer? Of course not. The reason I compare it to money is because:
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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. Have patience with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything.
27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
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And that works fine for me, seeing as im willing to accept His gift for my sins and Hes more than willing to pay for my sins.
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #82[Replying to post 80 by Bust Nak]
Because the innocent man was willing to pay whatever cost for that guilty man. Whether its money or life its all just prices paid.
If God is who we sin against and He's willing to accept Christ sacrifice as payment and the guilty is willing to accept it, and Christ is willing to pay it, all parties are free to do so. Its only when the guilty aren't willing to accept it that God punishes them.
All parties are willing to accept the sacrifice except the guilty so the guilty stay guilty and ultimately end up paying for their sins with their own lives
Because the innocent man was willing to pay whatever cost for that guilty man. Whether its money or life its all just prices paid.
If God is who we sin against and He's willing to accept Christ sacrifice as payment and the guilty is willing to accept it, and Christ is willing to pay it, all parties are free to do so. Its only when the guilty aren't willing to accept it that God punishes them.
All parties are willing to accept the sacrifice except the guilty so the guilty stay guilty and ultimately end up paying for their sins with their own lives
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #83I'm comparing the sentences, not the crimes. The sentences is death in both cases. All you're really doing here is highlighting the fact that God is sentencing people to death for petty crimes like lying and stealing. Yes I agree with you; most sinners are not serial killers. But regardless, God sentences them to death. Would you consider that just? If a man was sentenced to death for stealing some bread?MuffMaYne wrote: If you're gonna compare apples to apples then do so, don't start to exaggerate. How many serial killers do you honestly think would make it to heaven? Is your average sinner comparable to a serial killer? Of course not.
This is still not a reason. You tell me it's comparable to debt and then you quote a parable. This parable does not demonstrate the justice in allowing innocent men to suffer on behalf of guilty men.MuffMaYne wrote: he reason I compare it to money is because:
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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. Have patience with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything.
27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
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The reason it is acceptable to allow others to pay debt is not because of justice but because the person wants his money. If you buy something from me, I don't ask for money for punishment. I ask for money because I want money. I don't care where you get the money, as long as you give it to me.
The matter of sin, however, is a sentence. It is meant to be a punishment. It is meant to exact justice. Collecting debt is not a punishment. It is not a matter of justice, it is a matter of compensation. It is a matter of me wanting money for the car I gave you. That is why you cannot compare the two. That and... you know... money and human lives are simply not comparable
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #84[Replying to post 83 by Justin108]
All I would have to do is replace the word money with life every time you used it. The price was life, the same way the price would be $1
All I would have to do is replace the word money with life every time you used it. The price was life, the same way the price would be $1
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #85Did you read anything I just said?MuffMaYne wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Justin108]
All I would have to do is replace the word money with life every time you used it. The price was life, the same way the price would be $1
Debt (money) is about compensation. The debt collector wants his money. The debt collector does not really care about where you get the money
Punishment (death) is about justice. The judge wants the guilty party to be punished for his crime. The judge most certainly cares who is being punished.
So to be clear, is death a punishment? Or is death a debt? Because if death is just a debt, then it implies that God (like the debt collector) just wants death. Which in turn implies that God is a bloodthirsty monster. If he just wants death (regardless of where it comes from), then God is a bloodthirsty monster. If this is a debt and not a punishment, then you cannot keep calling it "justice". Debt is not about justice
Last edited by Justin108 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #86[Replying to post 85 by Justin108]
Yes, I did, but replacing the word money with life makes your argument irrelevant. You may not accept that being forced to pay a debt is a punishment, but what you will or wont accept doesn't really matter here. If I break something or ruin something (sin) and then get taken to court and fined so that I have to pay $100 (punished) thats a punishment. Your personal feelings about the matter dont matter.
Yes, I did, but replacing the word money with life makes your argument irrelevant. You may not accept that being forced to pay a debt is a punishment, but what you will or wont accept doesn't really matter here. If I break something or ruin something (sin) and then get taken to court and fined so that I have to pay $100 (punished) thats a punishment. Your personal feelings about the matter dont matter.
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #87Being forced to pay a debt is a punishment, but only if you are actually being forced to pay the debt yourself.MuffMaYne wrote: Yes, I did, but replacing the word money with life makes your argument irrelevant. You may not accept that being forced to pay a debt is a punishment
I could say the same to you. You keep repeating that "this is justice" but you cannot demonstrate it. So you're telling me that you accept it as justice, but what you accept doesn't really matter here unless you can actually demonstrate itMuffMaYne wrote:but what you will or wont accept doesn't really matter here.
No, the $100 is not a punishment, it's a compensation. Whatever you broke is going to be paid for with the $100. The person who's stuff you broke wants the money to compensate for what you broke.MuffMaYne wrote:If I break something or ruin something (sin) and then get taken to court and fined so that I have to pay $100 (punished)
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #88[Replying to post 87 by Justin108]
To be forced to "compensate" someone with money is a form of punishment for whatever wrong you've done. Now you may feel like it isn't but that doesn't matter, because by any standard thats a punishment. The compensation is a part of the punishment. In fact it is the punishment. These things aren't mutually exclusive in anyway.
And for obvious reasons thats just.
To be forced to "compensate" someone with money is a form of punishment for whatever wrong you've done. Now you may feel like it isn't but that doesn't matter, because by any standard thats a punishment. The compensation is a part of the punishment. In fact it is the punishment. These things aren't mutually exclusive in anyway.
And for obvious reasons thats just.
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #89Ok let's say a kid threw a rock through a window. His parents get fined a certain amount to pay to fix the window. How is the kid being punished? Can you please explain that to me?MuffMaYne wrote: To be forced to "compensate" someone with money is a form of punishment for whatever wrong you've done.
It does if you cannot demonstrate your position. You constantly repeating this line is no different from saying "I'm right and you're wrong". I know you're new here, but that's not how debates on this site work. You need to demonstrate how exactly it is justice for an innocent man to be sentenced to death on behalf of a guilty man.MuffMaYne wrote:Now you may feel like it isn't but that doesn't matter
Yes, you will probably again brush this off as "yeah but money". Death IS NOT MONEY. There is literally not a single instance where this kind of system would be considered justice in the real world. If person A is sentenced to death and person B offers to take his place, allowing person B to do this IS NOT JUSTICE.
I find it quite odd that you so vehemently insist on using money as an example when literally any other example of punishment requires the guilty party to be punished
- prison is ALWAYS for the guilty party
- death is ALWAYS for the guilty party
- community service is ALWAYS for the guilty party
Oh no but since none of these examples fit your agenda, you're going to disregard them and insist we use "money" as an analogy for this.
Give me one good reason why you refuse to compare death sentences with death sentences? My guess is because you know your entire case will collapse once you do
Re: Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?
Post #90[Replying to post 89 by Justin108]
Why would that scenario even be applicable? They punish the parents because we dont use child labor and children dont have jobs to pay fines. He could be sent to a juvenile detention center or something but again that scenario is stupid. You are literally asking me why don't courts fine children. If thats not obvious...wtf
Yes death isn't money, and your or anyone sin isn't that they just broke a window.
Doesn't really matter to me if we use money or not. Money is just the first thing and easiest thing to be understood.
If the price of sinning is death and someone is willing to pay for someone elses with their own life and theyre of sound mind and not forced, then by all means its just. Money just happened to be the thing thats most similar to the situation because we price things in money.
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"For the wages of sin is death..." Thats the price, death. Thats how much it cost. To pay for sin there must be death. You sin and then ask for your check, the amount you're gonna be paying is death.
Why would that scenario even be applicable? They punish the parents because we dont use child labor and children dont have jobs to pay fines. He could be sent to a juvenile detention center or something but again that scenario is stupid. You are literally asking me why don't courts fine children. If thats not obvious...wtf
Yes death isn't money, and your or anyone sin isn't that they just broke a window.
Doesn't really matter to me if we use money or not. Money is just the first thing and easiest thing to be understood.
If the price of sinning is death and someone is willing to pay for someone elses with their own life and theyre of sound mind and not forced, then by all means its just. Money just happened to be the thing thats most similar to the situation because we price things in money.
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"For the wages of sin is death..." Thats the price, death. Thats how much it cost. To pay for sin there must be death. You sin and then ask for your check, the amount you're gonna be paying is death.
