Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?

[Justin108]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 356 by KenRU]

In summary, you disagree with my assertions that there have been instances where the dead have come back to life. I suggested that you conduct additional research, which you stated you would. As of now, you are skeptic (which is your right, and is reasonable) and I am not. I don't think stating it over and over will change anything, so we will just have to allow the evidence to speak for itself.

Understood, and thanks for taking the time to engage with me on this topic. I would have liked to explore more the reasons why you are not skeptical, but I understand and respect your concerns.

Understood, but I respectfully disagree. If miracles were commonplace, then they wouldn't be so miraculous, would they?

I disagree. A miracle is not limited to occurring only once or so rare, that we never see it again. Lets suppose people coming back from the dead occurs at a rate of 100 people per year world wide. In a population of over 7 billion people, where 55+ million people die each year, a rate of 100 out of 55,000,000 or 0.00000018% frequency.

This suggested rate would be frequent enough to document a few instances, but not enough to be considered routine or normal.

There is no limitation to how frequent a miracle can or will occur. Do you suggest that miracles cannot occur more than once?

No, I am simply likening its value to its extraordinarily rare (supposedly) occurrence, like a precious metal. The more abundant, the less value to us humans. Seems a reasonable position to hold.

Even in your example above, we can see our differing points of view. I find even those numbers extremely doubtful. Miracles are often attributed to god (by definition), so if god performs just one, its rare and wondrous. But have it happen every day (not saying you are saying this) and it becomes less surprising and less "miraculous" for lack of a better word. It is still a miracle, by definition, but the luster and rarity is clearly lessened. If we can agree with those two ends of the pendulum, I hope then you can see my point about the frequency being important.

All the best, KnP

So when another branch of academic study suggest an event occurred and the likely hood of said occurrence was a 0.00000018% or greater, you doubt it occurred, even if we know for a fact this rare event did occur?

First off no branch of academic study (to my knowledge) concedes magic is possible (other than theology). So, if we rule out magic or supernatural occurrences, then no that is not what I'm saying. If your example above includes magic/supernatural/miracles, then yes. And, I'd ask to see which branch of academic study proffers such a possibility.

Do you realize that there are rarer events which take place than the example I gave above. Just because something is rare, does not mean it does not occur.

Agreed, except when it comes to magic, imo.

If I am not understanding what you suggested above, please correct me, but it seems as though you write" I find even those numbers extremely doubtful." Is it the rate of 100 in 55 million you find doubtful, or something else?

Imo, I believe that the percentage of cases resulting in seemingly miraculous recoveries is more rare than you stated. And the ones that do happen, have a very natural explanation that was simply not discovered.

Hopefully I cleared up any confusion.

-all the best

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 360 by KenRU]

Thank you. You did clear up some confusion in the earlier post.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 355 by Justin108]

Moderator Intervention

Can we get back to the topic please? It is about forgiveness, kindly refer to the OP to get back on track. Thank you.

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It appears our conversation should move elsewhere, Justin108. Should you want to continue it, I started a new thread entitled "The rationality of the Resurrection" in the Christianity and Apologetics subforum.