Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

[Zzyzx]

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Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

From a current thread:

Holding a negative view of atheists seems to be a requirement to bolster up some theologies. Holding a realistic view would cause to many cherished doctrines to crash to the ground.

"It is all a big conspiracy. The five percent (5%) who are Atheists are ganged up against we seventy percent (70%) who are Christians -- and they have a bunch of smart people and scientists on their side."

Of course, the spread of non-belief threatens the livelihood and status of preachers. But, why does it seem to so upset everyday believers? Does disbelief of others affect their own beliefs?

[Tcg]

Judgement of eternal life burning in hellfire?? Judgement isn't that. ]

As you'll notice if you review my post, I never referred to hell. My point is that it is a mistake to consider John 12:47 a verse that speaks against judgement. Jesus used threats of judgment in his ministry regularly. When the context of verse 47 is considered, it is clear this is an example of one of those threats.


Tcg

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #77]

To me it seems like, and I could be wrong, but it seems like the non religious people on the forum hold a very strange idea about Christians or religious people in general, as though they’re manipulative sociopaths who are trying to trick people and children into their religion. There are definitely people who are extreme, but that’s in any group. Your average person is not trying to force anything on anyone, nor trick them with idea of heaven and hell.

I’m always confused by people who think like this. I was never forced into a church or scared into believing. Never personally came into contact with someone like that either. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but that’s not the norm. I’m always baffled that people find it easier to believe atheist are crazy Godless people who will do anything to take away someone’s faith, and at the same time I’m confused why you would think a religious person is just a manipulator.

Maybe the atheist doesn’t believe because he/she sees no reason to believe and maybe the religious person believes because they see a reason to believe.

The idea that the opposite side is just a bunch of crazed maniacs who are master manipulators to win people over seems in itself crazy to me. Average people are pretty average and believe what they believe because they see a reason to believe or not believe. Just because someone doesn’t agree doesn’t mean they’re your enemy and just because someone is your enemy doesn’t mean you need to defame them. Your ideas and beliefs either stand on their own or they fall on their own. Attacking people personal character seems counter productive to debate.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to Tcg in post #81]

Good Evening, TCG,

I was just quoting the verse from Divine Insight's post. It was his verse used to make his point. I had suggested other verses instead. Just the same, I don't think the judgement spoken of in John 12:48, is speaking of the condemnation of the world. That, of course, is contrary to the mainstream doctrine, based heavily on Dante and more lightly on scripture. I believe it is less ominous than you might assume.

Soj

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to Muffinmayne in post #82]

Thank you for a considered and considerate post.

To me it seems like, and I could be wrong, but it seems like the non religious people on the forum hold a very strange idea about Christians or religious people in general,

You may be right. Some of us non-religious people have been debating religious topics and people for many years (since 2007 in my case).

Do you suppose that the religious people we debate have shown us a lot about religious people?

as though they’re manipulative sociopaths who are trying to trick people and children into their religion. There are definitely people who are extreme, but that’s in any group. Your average person is not trying to force anything on anyone, nor trick them with idea of heaven and hell.

Indoctrination need not be done by force in present times (though force WAS used in the past when religion was better able to wield power). Typically children are introduced to religion of their parents, family, society – and are taught religion over many years. Many continue the religious path by attending weekly reinforcement meetings (often called 'services').

I’m always confused by people who think like this. I was never forced into a church or scared into believing. Never personally came into contact with someone like that either. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but that’s not the norm.

"Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man." attributed to St. Ignatius

I’m always baffled that people find it easier to believe atheist are crazy Godless people who will do anything to take away someone’s faith,

That attitude is expressed occasionally in these threads, usually by those who are fanatical about their religion.

and at the same time I’m confused why you would think a religious person is just a manipulator.

It seems more common to attribute manipulation to religion or religious organization rather than to a religious person (excepting evangelical preachers perhaps).

Maybe the atheist doesn’t believe because he/she sees no reason to believe and maybe the religious person believes because they see a reason to believe.

Debates in this sub-forum (C&A) tend to focus on presenting or challenging religious claims and stories.

The idea that the opposite side is just a bunch of crazed maniacs who are master manipulators to win people over seems in itself crazy to me. Average people are pretty average and believe what they believe because they see a reason to believe or not believe.

Agree 100%

Just because someone doesn’t agree doesn’t mean they’re your enemy and just because someone is your enemy doesn’t mean you need to defame them.

Agree 100%.

Your ideas and beliefs either stand on their own or they fall on their own.

Agree 100%

Attacking people personal character seems counter productive to debate.

Personal attacks are strictly prohibited by Forum Rules. Repeat offenders become ex-members.

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #84]

I don’t think your average religious person debates tbh but I do think the ones who do expose how some think and how flawed their beliefs can be, or even worse how little they actually know about their own religion.

Yes people take their kids to church, I don’t see a problem with that. You teach and guide your children through life the way you see best. You try to equip them with the tools you feel are necessary to be a good person. It’s not malicious as some would make it seem.

If I’m anything like I was at 7years old I’ve lived wrong. I understand the quote but I wouldn’t agree with that at all.

The fact that they’re fanatical isn’t enough of a reason to deem them not the norm? That’s like say an extremist is the norm, no, they’re the extreme.

As for preachers or just any religious people being manipulators, that can be attributed to both sides. It’s not about religion it’s about power. Powerful people or people in positions of power are usually more prone to manipulate, religious or not.

To sum all this up, I think it’s inaccurate to hold the position that most religious people are master manipulators and just disingenuous. You coming across bad apples does not mean all or even most apples are bad.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #77]

To me it seems like, and I could be wrong, but it seems like the non religious people on the forum hold a very strange idea about Christians or religious people in general, as though they’re manipulative sociopaths who are trying to trick people and children into their religion. There are definitely people who are extreme, but that’s in any group. Your average person is not trying to force anything on anyone, nor trick them with idea of heaven and hell.

I’m always confused by people who think like this. I was never forced into a church or scared into believing. Never personally came into contact with someone like that either. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but that’s not the norm. I’m always baffled that people find it easier to believe atheist are crazy Godless people who will do anything to take away someone’s faith, and at the same time I’m confused why you would think a religious person is just a manipulator.

Maybe the atheist doesn’t believe because he/she sees no reason to believe and maybe the religious person believes because they see a reason to believe.

The idea that the opposite side is just a bunch of crazed maniacs who are master manipulators to win people over seems in itself crazy to me. Average people are pretty average and believe what they believe because they see a reason to believe or not believe. Just because someone doesn’t agree doesn’t mean they’re your enemy and just because someone is your enemy doesn’t mean you need to defame them. Your ideas and beliefs either stand on their own or they fall on their own. Attacking people personal character seems counter productive to debate.

I was the born again, drunk in the holy ghost, street evangelizing, out of the country missionary that I was referring to. The 'tickets to heaven' was how we were encouraged to evangelize to children and you can bet that I was personally threatened with eternal damnation in a lake of fire as small child.

We were the crazed maniac, master manipulators (not all Christians are of course). I hope we never crossed paths as who knows what terrible things I might have suggested to you in order to scare you in to saying the Lord's prayer.

You can think that I hold a strange idea about Christianity, but what I refer to was an actuality, not an idea.

This was my milage, yours likely varied.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to Muffinmayne in post #85]

I don’t think your average religious person debates tbh but I do think the ones who do expose how some think and how flawed their beliefs can be, or even worse how little they actually know about their own religion.

Agree. Only a small percentage of people (religious or not) debate. Those who debate, as you say, may expose their thinking and expose beliefs that can be challenged as flawed.

Many Apologist debaters demonstrate that they know very little about their religion or its literature (though typically assuming they have greater knowledge of religion and literature than non-religious opponents – an often serious blunder in debate).

Yes people take their kids to church, I don’t see a problem with that.

Agree. I do not oppose parents taking their kids to church. However, I note that childhood religious training is how most people develop their religious beliefs – before judgment and discernment have developed. Many or most continue to believe for a lifetime.

You teach and guide your children through life the way you see best.

Hopefully

You try to equip them with the tools you feel are necessary to be a good person. It’s not malicious as some would make it seem.

Has anyone here actually claimed 'malicious'? Where? If so, I would disagree with them.

If I’m anything like I was at 7years old I’ve lived wrong. I understand the quote but I wouldn’t agree with that at all.

Ignatius may have overstated a bit, but early training is effective in setting many lifetime characteristics.

The fact that they’re fanatical isn’t enough of a reason to deem them not the norm? That’s like say an extremist is the norm, no, they’re the extreme.

Agree – fanatics are extreme – often swinging the sword of righteousness (or self-righteousness)

As for preachers or just any religious people being manipulators, that can be attributed to both sides. It’s not about religion it’s about power. Powerful people or people in positions of power are usually more prone to manipulate, religious or not.

Yes, the lust for power (and wealth and status) contribute to the actions of many people,

To sum all this up, I think it’s inaccurate to hold the position that most religious people are master manipulators and just disingenuous.

Has anyone here suggested or even implied that “most religious people are master manipulators”

You coming across bad apples does not mean all or even most apples are bad.

If given a choice, do we buy a bag that contains some bad apples? (Maybe if it is cheap enough?)

If bad apples are left in the bag, what happens to the other apples?

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #87]

There’s too much there for me to want to reply to lol

I think apologist or people on both sides reveal how little they know about a religion. I can tell from the context in which a lot of scripture is used. It’s one thing to google a verse and post it, it’s another to understand it in it’s full context. On both sides I’ve seen people be wrong.

Most beliefs, if not all beliefs come through “training” what kind of person just believes things just because? So I don’t see that as an issue. Religious “training” is perfectly normal.

I haven’t seen anyone here flat out say people are malicious it’s just implied by the way they refer to certain things. It’s as though people talk to and about each others beliefs like they’re a joke.

I would hope you wouldn’t buy a bag with bad apples. I would also hope one doesn’t eat a bad apple and think all apples taste like that one, and that seems to be where people’s thinking leads them. You met some overly zealous and extreme religious people? That sucks, it really does. Does that mean all religious people or religions teach people to be like that? No, not at all.

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #86]

My question would be, why as a seemingly rational and normal person let someone else away you and dictate how you spread your religion. How can you as a sane person have thought scaring people into doing anything was correct? Just because you have a belief system doesn’t mean you don’t get to think for yourself.

I’m a Christian and if anyone ever told me that I needed to go to a foreign country and scare anyone for any reason they would be met with a quick f off

[otseng]

I’m a Christian and if anyone ever told me that I needed to go to a foreign country and scare anyone for any reason they would be met with a quick fuck off

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