Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

[Zzyzx]

.
Why do you care if people believe your god tales?

From a current thread:

Holding a negative view of atheists seems to be a requirement to bolster up some theologies. Holding a realistic view would cause to many cherished doctrines to crash to the ground.

"It is all a big conspiracy. The five percent (5%) who are Atheists are ganged up against we seventy percent (70%) who are Christians -- and they have a bunch of smart people and scientists on their side."

Of course, the spread of non-belief threatens the livelihood and status of preachers. But, why does it seem to so upset everyday believers? Does disbelief of others affect their own beliefs?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

Can you present the rationale you employ to conclude the above should be understood to mean that Jesus is "telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words" ? The fact is he is recorded as saying no such thing and if we take the plain meaning of the words, all he is saying here is that he has not been sent to judge people for their disbelief.

There is no mention if import


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

Where is that?

Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

I would have been more inclined to use these scriptures.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:10-15)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezekiel 37:12-14)

Why? How do you suppose thee above verses support the claim that Jesus taught.... " that it's not important to believe in him or in his words" ?

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to brunumb in post #70]

You seem overly skeptical and have an overly negative attitude towards Christians, like a child who was big by a dog and grew to hate all of them. Your average person isnt gonna berate you for your belief or lack of belief, religious or not.

[Zzyzx]

Your average person isnt gonna berate you for your belief or lack of belief, religious or not.

As a resident of the infamous Bible Belt, I disagree. Within the first few minutes of meeting someone, a typical question is: "What church do you attend"? If the answer is "None", the disapproval is immediate and obvious.

Though people seem to know better than to 'berate' me, their attitude is apparent.

I have no desire to know a person's religious beliefs (or their sexual preferences) -- and prefer that such things remain as personal and private matters.

Here in debate many cannot accept "I don't believe your god tales" or requests for verifiable evidence to support religious claims and stories presented as truth.

Religion is often used as a divisive factor -- 'Us vs. Them' mentality.

[Muffinmayne]

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #74]

Im from the south actually, 20+ years actually and while there are definitely people who exist that fit your description, I would say the average person isnt that way. Its always the most extreme people that have the loudest voices.

Honestly tho seems like a pointless topic to get stuck on. Its really gonna come down to what each individual has experienced.

[Zzyzx]

Its always the most extreme people that have the loudest voices.

Agree 100% -- and those become 'spokesmen' for the cause they champion.

Moderate people (perhaps the vast majority), here in debate and elsewhere, often or usually don't have much to say -- and what they do say is typically quiet, respectful, inclusive, and IGNORED.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Zzyzx in post #67]

I dont find debates to productive if people cant be honest. If my beliefs cant stand on their own then I probably shouldnt hold those beliefs. I see it on both sides. Exaggerations and lies, both sides do it.

But again, people, Christians, myself find it important that people believe because of hell but theres also many other reasons, I just think hell is the easiest to talk about.

It's the reason that works best on children from my experience.
Want to get their attention? Offer them tickets to heaven, but don't forget to threaten them with eternal damnation in a hell if they choose to reject your god concept.

Remind them that a god gave them free will to listen to the message being delivered, or to burn in hell for eternity. (Don't let them think about that one too long though or they might see that as not so much of a fee will argument).

You can then follow it up with a "what do you have to lose if I'm wrong"?
If I'm right, you will go to heaven for eternity (really sell that 'eternity' part).
If I'm wrong, then there is no hell for you to fear in the first place.

Some people see through this emotional scare tactic. Children are much more susceptible. So I agree, when it comes to children and getting them to believe religious claims, hell is one of the easiest places to start.

Are empty threats of hell child abuse though? That's another questions.
Imagine a stranger coming up to your child and telling them that unless they believe claim X (who knows, pretend it's a claim about a dead body coming back to life, doesn't matter really), demons are going to get them in their sleep.
I would encourage my children to stay away from such people and if such claims kept happening, I would ask them to avoid contact with my children.

For some reason, when I was a Christian, I had no problem being that person (selling tickets to heaven and what have you).
My belief that I was saving them from a hell is what encouraged me to have this poor behavior. Being set free from my religious beliefs allowed me to be a much more Christlike person ironically.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #72]

Well now, I wasn't saying that it's not important for ME to believe or for YOU. That wasn't what Divine Insight was saying. In the spirit of what was written, that he felt that the Bible, i.e. Jesus, taught that it wasn't important for those who did not believe, to believe.

Divine Insight wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
The Gospels even have Jesus telling us that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.
Where is that?
Why is it that Christians never know what's in the Bible?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

In due time, I'm quite certain Divine Insight will be given a better understanding, at which point, may come to see things entirely differently. Of course, contrarily, for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, it is not only important, it is imperative that they believe.

But I believe that most people do not fall into that category, at this time.

Soj

[Tcg]

• John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

In due time, I'm quite certain Divine Insight will be given a better understanding, at which point, may come to see things entirely differently. Of course, contrarily, for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, it is not only important, it is imperative that they believe.

But I believe that most people do not fall into that category, at this time.

Soj

John 12:47 is often taken out of context and when done so, it paints a very different picture than intended.

• John 12:44-48
  
  44 And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

This passage, verse 47 included, is a passage threatening judgement. Jesus is simply saying that it isn't he himself that will judge (although Revelation paints a very different picture), but rather his word that will.


Tcg

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to Tcg in post #79]

Tcg wrote:
This passage, verse 47 included, is a passage threatening judgement. Jesus is simply saying that it isn't he himself that will judge (although Revelation paints a very different picture), but rather his word that will.

Judgement of eternal life burning in hellfire?? Judgement isn't that. ]

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and the LORD carried me out in a spirit, and set me down in the midst of the valley, and it was full of bones; and He caused me to pass by them round about, and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And He said unto me: 'Son of man, can these bones live?' And I answered: 'O Lord GOD, Thou knowest.'

Then He said unto me: 'Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them: O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.' So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I beheld, and, lo, there were sinews upon them, and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them. Then said He unto me: 'Prophesy unto the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.' So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great host.

Then He said unto me: 'Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say: Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off. Therefore prophesy, and say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people. And I will put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land; and ye shall know that I the LORD have spoken, and performed it, saith the LORD.' (Ezekiel 37:1-14 JPS)

This is the beginning of the Judgement of God. They will come up out of their graves, realizing they are 'clean cut off' but God will use this opportunity to show them that He is indeed God.

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. And ye shall call upon Me, and go, and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD, and I will turn your captivity, and gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you back unto the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
(Jeremiah 29:11-14 JPS)

Judgement is an opportunity to get it right. For those who did not have the chance; for those who did not listen, for those whose eyes were blinded to it; Eyes to see; ears to hear and a heart open to it.

According to the Bible, if one is so inclined.

Soj