Born again?

[McCulloch]

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said

• Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In what sense do Christians claim to have become born anew? Do the foolish become wise? Does the person get a new personality? What?

[byhisgrace]

Hi byhisgrace. The last thing I want to do is nitpick things about your testomony, but there are some comments I will make.

ANSWER: I appreciate your sensitivity, especially since I was somewhat reluctant to put it out here.
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I just woke up in the middle of the night and KNEW who Jesus Christ really was....

Christians often claim knowledge, but I have a problem with that. Nobody can "know", they can only have "absolute faith. Saying the wod "knew" or "know" gives one a feeling of being faithful and authorative. However to a non-believer it is not convincing.
ANSWER: To someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit, it cannot be explained (I tried!) One cannot become a Christian without the Holy Spirit I also believe that nobody can 'convince' anybody to become a Christian. That is God's business and a spiritual matter.
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It did not change my personality. However, it changed my attitude (literally overnight) toward life and toward things that happen to me, toward other people,

This is how I see it too. It gives you a new outlook. However I don't see that as anything supernatural as some people in this thread seem to be suggesting.
ANSWER: I see your point. However, this is the Holy Spirit issue, see above.
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I became more patient and tolerant, less selfish. I felt an undescribable happiness and I went and told everybody.

I wonder if you really became more patient, tolerant and less selfish, or whether you made more of an effort to take on these qualities. Was there a realisation that impatience, intolerance and selfishness made you unhappy and that all they did was cause you strife?
ANSWER: I see your point. However, I didn't think I was so bad that it made me unhappy. Actually I thought I was pretty o.k. not perfect, but o.k. - until that night This is the Holy Spirit issue again.
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When I first found these Christian forums about 'debating Christianity" I laughed!!! Debating Christianity???! How do you do that? Christianity is not debatable.

Not debatable? As a Christian I was always debating it. There is much to debate, even with fellow Christians. Do you not have differing opinions about scripture with other Christians? ANSWER: --No -- only with church-goers. I may have questions; then I go to a qualified teacher and make sure he or she answeres me biblically. However, understanding the bible in a proper way is, again, a spiritual matter.
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Do you ever come across Christians that have exactly the same beliefs as you and who interpret scripture exactly the same as you? ANSWER: -- Yes!
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Do you think it is not possible for a non-believer to argue hypothetically?
ANSWER: Yes, but not with a Christian about Christianity <grin>. Seriously, though, One CANNOT 'try out' Christianity. There is no 'hypothetical' in Christianity. (Holy Spirit issue)

You can debate church ethics, people's ethics who claim to be Christians - but Christianity is a faith issue between each individual and God. This is not something one can touch and prove. We cannot prove God! HE just IS !

Unfortunately to a believer, this is simply just an assumption without any real evidence. It is generally not taken seriously. If I said the Lochness Monster exists, because it just IS, you would scoff at me. ANSWER: Holy Spirit issue - the Lochness Monster is not God - irrelevant comparison.

I did not come to Christ because somebody proved something to me about God!!

You say you woke up one night "and knew". So how did you just know? Did God suddenly reveal that fact to you? If so, it seems you had some kind of proof directly from God, you didn't just choose to believe in God at that point. It seems God favoured you and chose to enlighten you, while refusing to enlighten millions of others. ANSWER: See original post: Rev. 3:20: HE KNOCKS on everybody's door - It is OUR CHOICE to open it - or not to open it.Also - again a Holy Spirit issue.

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Revelation 3:20: Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.: - He knocks on everyones door (anyone). What will we do with it??! That is the question. WEll, you can debated to death, too!

So you take seroiusly what a so-called Holy book told you? So if you read the Koran and it told you something, would you believe that?

ANSWER: I did not accept Christ based on what little I knew about the Gospel. I was not aware of Rev. 3:20 prior to being born again. Now, after being born again... YES - absolutely, I believe the bible is God inspired! Again, Holy Spirit issue. Since I recognized Christ and not 'Allah', the Koran is as irrelevant as the Lochness Monster.
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Be blessed

[Cathar1950]

I would like to go into your meaning of being "born again". It seems you have made a lot out of two unknown authors from the NT that make mention of beong born again with little substance.

Who the author is is irrelevant to me.

That doesn't surprise me.

You may not think you are religious, depending on your rather individualistic definition of religion, but if what you claim as being born again or Christ by way of the Holy Spirit is a religious experience, if it is authentic. Granted psychologist, anthropologists and sociologist do a better job of explanation then you have.
I suspect you have not experienced anything as much as you have leaned something and then experienced what you believed. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Your use of such phases as “spirit”,” born again” and “personal relationship” were learned and shared by other bible-believers of your ilk.
You present a very 19th century American (USA) semi-Gnostic Evangelic perspective despite your claims of being Biblical.

I suggest you read “Beyond Born Again” by Robert Price for starters.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... chap1.html

After that you might want to read:
http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/1361

[twobitsmedia]

I would like to go into your meaning of being "born again". It seems you have made a lot out of two unknown authors from the NT that make mention of beong born again with little substance.

Who the author is is irrelevant to me.

That doesn't surprise me.

You may not think you are religious, depending on your rather individualistic definition of religion, but if what you claim as being born again or Christ by way of the Holy Spirit is a religious experience, if it is authentic. Granted psychologist, anthropologists and sociologist do a better job of explanation then you have.
I suspect you have not experienced anything as much as you have leaned something and then experienced what you believed. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Your use of such phases as “spirit”,” born again” and “personal relationship” were learned and shared by other bible-believers of your ilk.
You present a very 19th century American (USA) semi-Gnostic Evangelic perspective despite your claims of being Biblical.

I suggest you read “Beyond Born Again” by Robert Price for starters.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... chap1.html

After that you might want to read:
http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/1361

Yes, when I feel I need to be enlightend I will read the wisdom of the infallible Robert Price. Then the critiques of the criitiques of the critiques of the other source. What it will show me is that if one does not acknowledge "spirit" as a reality, then they see the event in the natural......which may or may not look like anything or be rationalized to be something else with psycholigcal implications.

[OnceConvinced]

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ANSWER: To someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit, it cannot be explained (I tried!) One cannot become a Christian without the Holy Spirit I also believe that nobody can 'convince' anybody to become a Christian. That is God's business and a spiritual matter.

You are assuming I have not experienced the Holy Spirit. But I believe I did as a Christian. In fact if you'd ask me whether I was Spirit filled, I would have told you "I know I'm spirit filled".

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Do you ever come across Christians that have exactly the same beliefs as you and who interpret scripture exactly the same as you?

ANSWER: -- Yes!

Sorry, I find that very hard to believe. There are so many controversial scriptures in the bible that you would never find anyone who goes along with your interpretation on all of them. I'm sure if you have ever debated in a Christian forum you would have learnt that.

Seriously, though, One CANNOT 'try out' Christianity. There is no 'hypothetical' in Christianity. (Holy Spirit issue)

It is not a matter of "trying out" Christianity. It's a matter of looking at it from a particular perspective. In discussion it is an important skill to have if you wish to debate effectively. YOu will find many people on this site have that skill, including Christians who attempt to look at things from a hypothetical non-Christian perspective.

I myself believe I am in the perfect position to debate Christianity having experienced it myself. However I no longer claim to be a Christian.

ANSWER: Holy Spirit issue - the Lochness Monster is not God - irrelevant comparison.

It is a perfect comparison. I claim it to exist. I also claim that proof is irrelevent as it exists whether you believe it or not. So should I be taken seriously? It seems not.

Holy Spirit issue.

Sorry, I disagree that any of the things you say are Holy Spirit issues and claiming them to be so doesn't make it so, just like me claiming the Lochness Monster exists doesn't make it so.

See original post: Rev. 3:20: HE KNOCKS on everybody's door - It is OUR CHOICE to open it

No doubt preaching this to other Christians is going to get you lots of cries of "Amen" and "Preach it brother". However a sceptic is going to laugh and say it is a claim with no basis apart from what it says in a religious text. There is no way of knowing whether God is "knocking at your door" or not.

[twobitsmedia]

I acknowledged Christ as my personal lord and savior and recognised him as the son of God. I asked for forgiveness of sin.

Are you saying that is not being "born again"?

I think Nocodemus believed even that. It was then that Jesus presented being born again.

I agree (from a Christian perspective) that being born again is an internal rebirth and involves the Holy Spirit. However as we see many people take this step, then a few weeks later are no longer following Christ. The buzz wears off for a lot of people very quickly. Does that mean they were never truly "born again"? Does that therefore mean that a genuine commitment to Christ is not enough to be "born again"?

"genuine commitment" just means a "genuine commitment". It is a phrase that can be applied to many things. But "genuine commitment" to what? God or the feelling of the moment? When I was younger and working for Youth for Christ I saw many young people go up on the altar calls. Some repeatedly. I will have to say that most of those who went up were just caught up in the emotion of the moment. I went through the "rebirth" at about 18 or 19 years old. I remember later feeling I should do it again because I was not feeling saved. But, I later realized that how we feel might be a fruit of the experience, but "feelings" are not the basis for it: God is.

I realize that many churches play on the feelings and emotions of people to get them to make some kind of commitment. But it is, the way I see it, very fraudulent. God and salvation are sold like the newest and most improved toothpaste....a sad commentary on the church. But, it does not invalidate God, just their sales pitch.

[OnceConvinced]

I acknowledged Christ as my personal lord and savior and recognised him as the son of God. I asked for forgiveness of sin.

Are you saying that is not being "born again"?

I think Nocodemus believed even that. It was then that Jesus presented being born again.

No, Nic didn't believe that at all. He took being "born again" litereraly, as in reentering his mother's womb. He did not see it as a symbolic thing, which was why Jesus had to explain it to him.

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

"Born of water" must surely mean baptism, which I did when I was 16. Baptism of the Spirit? I went through that about two or three times.

[twobitsmedia]

I acknowledged Christ as my personal lord and savior and recognised him as the son of God. I asked for forgiveness of sin.

Are you saying that is not being "born again"?

I think Nocodemus believed even that. It was then that Jesus presented being born again.

No, Nic didn't believe that at all. He took being "born again" litereraly, as in reentering his mother's womb. He did not see it as a symbolic thing, which was why Jesus had to explain it to him.

That's not what i said. Nic first believed Christ as Lord and saviour...he recognized his Lorship...then he asked the questions about being born again and what it meant...to which Jesus explained.

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

"Born of water" must surely mean baptism, which I did when I was 16. Baptism of the Spirit? I went through that about two or three times.

"surely?" I can't say that for sure. Jesus was referred to as the "living water."

[byhisgrace]

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ANSWER: To someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit, it cannot be explained (I tried!) One cannot become a Christian without the Holy Spirit I also believe that nobody can 'convince' anybody to become a Christian. That is God's business and a spiritual matter.

You are assuming I have not experienced the Holy Spirit. But I believe I did as a Christian. In fact if you'd ask me whether I was Spirit filled, I would have told you "I know I'm spirit filled". REPLY: 1 Sam. 1:7 .... but the Lord looks at the heart. Rom. 9:10: ....with the heart one believes ....

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Do you ever come across Christians that have exactly the same beliefs as you and who interpret scripture exactly the same as you?

ANSWER: -- Yes!

Sorry, I find that very hard to believe. There are so many controversial scriptures in the bible that you would never find anyone who goes along with your interpretation on all of them. I'm sure if you have ever debated in a Christian forum you would have learnt that. REPLY: The 'debates' in forums or different views in Scripture I have seen so far have been mainly Christians with non-Christians (incl. RCC). Now the RCC is very controversial.

Seriously, though, One CANNOT 'try out' Christianity. There is no 'hypothetical' in Christianity. (Holy Spirit issue)

It is not a matter of "trying out" Christianity. It's a matter of looking at it from a particular perspective. In discussion it is an important skill to have if you wish to debate effectively. YOu will find many people on this site have that skill, including Christians who attempt to look at things from a hypothetical non-Christian perspective.

I myself believe I am in the perfect position to debate Christianity having experienced it myself. However I no longer claim to be a Christian. REPLY: Why are you no longer 'claiming to be' a Christian? What happened?

ANSWER: Holy Spirit issue - the Lochness Monster is not God - irrelevant comparison.

It is a perfect comparison. I claim it to exist. I also claim that proof is irrelevent as it exists whether you believe it or not. So should I be taken seriously? It seems not. REPLY: It is not about being taken seriously or not. It is about Christ! He certainly was rediculed. A Christian cannot save (nor convince) anyone (to accept Christ). Only God (Holy Spirit) can. If one hears the Gospel and finds it rediculous - that is a choice on their part. Telling the Gospel is a seed sown.

Holy Spirit issue.

Sorry, I disagree that any of the things you say are Holy Spirit issues and claiming them to be so doesn't make it so, just like me claiming the Lochness Monster exists doesn't make it so.

See original post: Rev. 3:20: HE KNOCKS on everybody's door - It is OUR CHOICE to open it

No doubt preaching this to other Christians is going to get you lots of cries of "Amen" and "Preach it brother". However a sceptic is going to laugh and say it is a claim with no basis apart from what it says in a religious text. There is no way of knowing whether God is "knocking at your door" or not.

REPLY: You are correct !! The Pharisees and the Romans, and many others had a good laugh. Let's see who will laugh last! Unfortunately, when we get to the 'proof' it is too late to change our heart and mind! As for me, I stick to Christ .... very close.
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Consider this:
Heb. 1:1,2: God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in may ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, who He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hebrews 2:1,2,3: For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobediance received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard." (emphasis added)
You may want to re-read all of Hebrews 1, too, sometime. It's really great!

Be blessed

[OnceConvinced]

Hi BHG. Good to see you back. For some reason I was thinking you were new to the site, but no I see you've been here a while now and posted quite a bit. My mistake.

Why are you no longer 'claiming to be' a Christian? What happened?

Here are a couple of links to threads on this site that will give you some of my story. There are other more personal things I have not included in them, but it should give you some idea, if you care to read:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... econvinced

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#131505

It is not about being taken seriously or not.

I see that it is. If one makes a claim without being willing to back up their claim, then why should they be taken seriously?

A Christian cannot save (nor convince) anyone (to accept Christ). Only God (Holy Spirit) can.

That is true, but Christ gave the great commission to preach the gospel. He also supposedly gave the Holy Spirit to help you with that. Therefore if you are truly empowered by the Holy Spirit then you should surely be able to find the right words to say to a non-believer to convince them or at least help them to understand. If you cannot do that, either you are not empowered by the Holy Spirit or it is ineffective.

BTW, if you want to discuss the HS, I'd love your input on this thread:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

If one hears the Gospel and finds it rediculous - that is a choice on their part.

There has been much debate on this site on whether the belief in Christ or the gospel is a choice. I personally don't see it as a choice but an inevitable conclusion of weighing up evidence. Do you make the choice not to believe the teachings of Hari Krishna, or do you come to the conclusion it's nonsense based on the fact his teachings violate the principles you hold true?

I came to the realisation (based on evidence) that the bible was not the infallible word of God and after coming to that conclusion I was able to see the silliness of it. I could no longer try to justify it or make excuses for it like I did as a Christian. That wasn't a choice. I could just no longer, in all good conscience, continue to kid myself about it.

At no point in my Christian walk did I ever say, "I no longer want to take this seriously anymore." It was a point where I said "I can't take it seriously anymore. As much as I'd love to keep on taking it seriously, it's just not possible."

You may want to re-read all of Hebrews 1, too, sometime. It's really great!

Yes, I've read it several times. I used to find Paul's writing inspiring. Now I take little of it seriously.

[AB]

It is not a matter of "trying out" Christianity. It's a matter of looking at it from a particular perspective. In discussion it is an important skill to have if you wish to debate effectively. YOu will find many people on this site have that skill, including Christians who attempt to look at things from a hypothetical non-Christian perspective.

Yeah, but can the truth of Christianity be discovered in a debate format? I feel the instrument of debating is inherently flawed in reaching a conclusion. It is filled with circular points and counter points, retreaded arguments, canned responses and hypotheticals which eventually reach a point of irrelevancy.

With that said, this site is very fun. It is a good way to see the perspective of others. Defending the bible is also a good exercise... The flood really happened. ha ha.