Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[whirlwind]

From Post 86:

The point I'm trying to make is.....

1. It isn't me that is speaking. They are His claims, His truths.

I challenge you to show you speak truth.

Just saying these are "God's words" or "God's claims" is insufficient. You must present some means to confirm the accuracy of your words here.

2. I'm not saying forum rules are unfair. I'm trying my best to work with them.

I do indeed. As truth is His Word and His Word is not to be quoted then I am prevented from presenting truth as written.

Coulda fooled me.

Are both not true? I have not said they were unfair and those rules prevent me from using the quotes I would like to use.

As loosely addressed here, you seem incapable of understanding that Bible quotes are not evidence those Bible quotes are correct.

"Jesus walked on water."

Evidence?

"It says so right here in this book!"

Do you see how goofy that is?

Take the ToE for example. In Darwin's great book, I can quote any number of claims, but the problem comes when I must honorably attempt to show those quotes correct. I can't just say "well Darwin wrote it down". That's insufficient. I must also show claims are true by reason, logic, physical or other evidence.

Or, I could present the claims and clearly mark them as opinion, but would be reticent to just "hide behind" that tactic. I much prefer showing I speak truth as opposed to presenting unverifiable opinion.

One of the great differences to note is...it is God vs. Darwin. The universe verses a mere man.

On the home page of this forum is the following.....

The pursuit of knowledge and truth, through God, through science, through civil and engaging debate

My question to you is....why are you not following those rules?

Because they ain't rules, that's a mission statement.

Please add the following links for future reference...
Debate Rules, and Guidelines for this, the Christianity & Apologetics Subforum. "Them's the rules".

Notice, nowhere in those rules can be found the mission statement you quote above.

Yes, I know but should not the mission statement be considered when posting. If God is to be part of this debate then....He should be part of the debate!

If we are to pursue truth it is to be "through God." And yet, you call Him circular logic and dismiss Him.

I make no claims regarding the properties of something I can't show exists.

What I do is point out your use of circular references / logic.

You may point them out...I no longer mind.

[Zzyzx]

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I do indeed. As truth is His Word and His Word is not to be quoted then I am prevented from presenting truth as written.

Coulda fooled me.

Are both not true? I have not said they were unfair and those rules prevent me from using the quotes I would like to use.

Quoting the bible is not prohibited.

Trying to use bible quotes to prove that Christianity or its bible are true IS prohibited in this debate sub-forum.

Or, I could present the claims and clearly mark them as opinion, but would be reticent to just "hide behind" that tactic. I much prefer showing I speak truth as opposed to presenting unverifiable opinion.

One of the great differences to note is...it is God vs. Darwin. The universe verses a mere man.

Neither “god� nor Darwin are debating here. Do you have anything to say about “god� that can be verified by a source other than or in addition to the bible?

Notice, nowhere in those rules can be found the mission statement you quote above.

Yes, I know but should not the mission statement be considered when posting.

Have you become a proponent of following Forum Rules and Guidelines? Is your probationary status an indication of your willingness to follow rules and guidelines?

If God is to be part of this debate then....He should be part of the debate!

“God� is certainly welcome. With proper authentication of “his� identity, I am willing to accept his statements about himself as valid.

I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

I make no claims regarding the properties of something I can't show exists.

What I do is point out your use of circular references / logic.

You may point them out...I no longer mind.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

[whirlwind]

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I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me.... I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me. Our goals are not the same. So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice. What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

[Zzyzx]

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I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Kindly verify this claim as required in honorable debate. I (and others I presume) do not accept your word that you are directed by "god". Such claims may work when preaching to the choir, but not in debate.

[JoeyKnothead]

I just went ahead and reported all of whirlwind's posts as "refuses to support claims".

I lack the time it takes to continually challenge claims only to be told such as "someone wrote it in a book".

[whirlwind]

.

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Kindly verify this claim as required in honorable debate. I (and others I presume) do not accept your word that you are directed by "god". Such claims may work when preaching to the choir, but in debate.

I've already been through this but....I'll repeat His words so you can then "honorably" trash them.


Luke 12:11-12 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

[whirlwind]

I just went ahead and reported all of whirlwind's posts as "refuses to support claims".

I lack the time it takes to continually challenge claims only to be told such as "someone wrote it in a book".

Joey, you are mistaken. I haven't refused anything. I support with His word. It is you and others that refuse to accept that Word.

[Zzyzx]

.

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Kindly verify this claim as required in honorable debate. I (and others I presume) do not accept your word that you are directed by "god". Such claims may work when preaching to the choir, but in debate.

I've already been through this but....I'll repeat His words so you can then "honorably" trash them.

I have no interest in or need to "trash" "his words", but leave that to those who claim to honor them but act otherwise. "Render unto Caesar" means to respect authority. Forum Admin represents authority on this website. You are already on probation for disrespecting their rules and guidelines.

1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. Please realize that people on the forum are from all worldview backgrounds and do not necessarily share the same assumptions.

4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

5. Please avoid "preaching" and using the forum as simply a way to blast people with the gospel message. This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize.

6. Realize that most participants here are strong debaters and have a vast knowledge of Christianity and the Bible (including non-theists). If you make any claims, be ready to support your claims with evidence if asked. Non-Biblical evidence would go far among non-theists.

7. For debates purely on theology with the assumption that the Bible is an authoritative source, please consider posting in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma subforum.

I asked you to verify that you are directed by "god" -- NOT by a book that cannot be verified to be the words of "god" (a book written by MAN pretending or claiming to speak for, or as, "god")

<snip quote from unverified source>

I haven't refused anything. I support with His word. It is you and others that refuse to accept that Word.

Kindly refer to Forum Rules and Guidelines above. You have "supported" ONLY with bible quotes and personal opinions.

[whirlwind]

.

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Kindly verify this claim as required in honorable debate. I (and others I presume) do not accept your word that you are directed by "god". Such claims may work when preaching to the choir, but in debate.

I've already been through this but....I'll repeat His words so you can then "honorably" trash them.

I have no interest in or need to "trash" "his words", but leave that to those who claim to honor them but act otherwise. "Render unto Caesar" means to respect authority. Forum Admin represents authority on this website. You are already on probation for disrespecting their rules and guidelines.

1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. Please realize that people on the forum are from all worldview backgrounds and do not necessarily share the same assumptions.

4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

5. Please avoid "preaching" and using the forum as simply a way to blast people with the gospel message. This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize.

6. Realize that most participants here are strong debaters and have a vast knowledge of Christianity and the Bible (including non-theists). If you make any claims, be ready to support your claims with evidence if asked. Non-Biblical evidence would go far among non-theists.

7. For debates purely on theology with the assumption that the Bible is an authoritative source, please consider posting in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma subforum.

I asked you to verify that you are directed by "god" -- NOT by a book that cannot be verified to be the words of "god" (a book written by MAN pretending or claiming to speak for, or as, "god")

<snip quote from unverified source>

I haven't refused anything. I support with His word. It is you and others that refuse to accept that Word.

Kindly refer to Forum Rules and Guidelines above. You have "supported" ONLY with bible quotes and personal opinions.

You have received an answer to your question. You refuse to accept it. I am becoming weary of turning the other cheek but....until the bell tolls....

[Zzyzx]

.

I do not, however, recognize pretenders or “representatives� as authentic.

Do you ever attempt to use bible quotations to prove that the bible or its stories are true?

I use Biblical quotes as God directs me....

Are you "directed" to use bible quotes to prove that the bible or its stories are true in these forums?

I trust you realize by now that those you recognize as "pretenders" or "authentic" are of no interest to me.

I do not write with aspiration of being of interest or even understandable to you. Instead, I write for readers who may be interested and who, I trust, understand and evaluate the merits of what is said.

Our goals are not the same.

You might have gotten that one right.

What are your goals in these threads?

So, ignore His Words if you wish. It is your choice.

Thank you for permission to do what I have done for sixty years – contentedly, confidently and without being intimidated by threats of “punishment� in an “afterlife� (that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination).

What comes to mind are the words of Jesus when He said, "Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

Other words attributed to Jesus indicate that he deliberately spoke to NOT be understood.

Matthew 13:10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"; 11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted; 12For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him; 13Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.