Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[Danmark]

I have given multi page accounts to Christians of my Christian walk and how I came to be an ex-Christian, but many of them just flag it away as it it were nothing and meaningless and then continue with their same ill-informed presumptions about me.

Most Christians don't seem to want to make any effort to try to understand the real reasons why people drop from the faith. They have no interest in that. They just want to stand in judgement.

Someone who at least attempts to try to understand is more likely to be respected by we ex-Christians and listened too rather than judgemental asses who have preconceived ideas about us.

There were two ways that I could've approached the Christian drop-outs matter but both would've had the same end-result from my experience. I could've done similar to a single-blind study (keeping my conclusion hidden from all former Christians turned atheists) by asking a series of questions to former Christians and let their responses confirm my point about their lack of research and subsequent dropping out of the faith. OR I could've let them know my conclusion and work backwards to show how or why 'some' atheists drop-out.

I chose to take the latter approach, and just as I expected, NOT ONE former Christian turned atheist so far on this thread has been willing to admit that they left Christianity due to a lack of research, assuming that they researched at all.

Why do you insist they admit something that is not true?
You are you to claim you know what other people think and the bases for their thoughts. In fact you have refused so far to even say what you are talking about when you write:

I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.

Without specificity it seems you are just saying they disagree with you and you perceive they haven't studied 'X' the way YOU want them to.

And yes, Christianity and Christian scriptures ARE sexist. That is well documented. it comes from a sexist culture. I think a majority of Christians today have outgrown this tradition or are trying to. I think most Christians recognize these scriptures do not recognize the true message of Christ, which was not tied to culture. In fact the case can be made (and I personally believe this) that what we see in the gospels is a Jesus who went outside the prevailing sexist culture and honored women. That's one of the beautiful and positive things about Christianity, that Jesus Christ took Judaism out of the tribal religion category and made steps to make it more archetypal and universal. But it is just plain ignorance to pretend that Paul and the Jewish culture and the Old Testament do not reflect the very human, sexist culture of their time.

[JLB32168]

Proselytize is defined as (Merriam Webster Dictionary) as: to try to persuade people to join a religion, cause, or group.

The word Proselyte comes from the Greek “stranger,� and is commonly understood as one who wasn’t a fill in the blank with a religion before, but is now. That is the context that it is used in the NT when “proselytes� are those who were born pagans but have become converts to Judaism (cf. Acts). Stodgy citations of dictionaries prove that one can be pedantic. They certainly don’t contribute or detract from the point that Christ sent people to give the message to those who weren’t Christians, but if the hearers rejected the message – or apostatized – then their job was done and they were to leave “shaking the dust of their feet� on the way out.

If you actually were to confine your efforts, as you claim, to people who have not heard the gospel WHO would you talk to? Who, in modern society, has not heard the gospel before you came along?

Lots of people have heard a version of the Gospel, but have heard an incomplete or distorted version of it. If, however, they do hear it in its fullness and summarily reject it, then I’m done.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 87 by OpenYourEyes]

Do you think your OP and this post represent what Paul advised in Ephesians 4:15?

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 87 by OpenYourEyes]

I'm curious, OpenYourEyes, what is the proper amount of research necessary for you to consider it a legitimate reason to leave the faith? What are the proper questions to ask first? What is the proper knowledge to have before you deem it isn't a "drop out" situation?

In my case, I was raised Catholic, went to CCD (which entailed studying the bible and Christ), rec'd my Sacraments, took courses about religion and the Gospels in college. Ultimately, I became a non-believer. How do I determine if you consider me a "drop out" Christian?

Is there a standard by which you hold others too?

-all the best

[OpenYourEyes]

There were two ways that I could've approached the Christian drop-outs matter but both would've had the same end-result from my experience. I could've done similar to a single-blind study (keeping my conclusion hidden from all former Christians turned atheists) by asking a series of questions to former Christians and let their responses confirm my point about their lack of research and subsequent dropping out of the faith. OR I could've let them know my conclusion and work backwards to show how or why 'some' atheists drop-out.

I chose to take the latter approach, and just as I expected, NOT ONE former Christian turned atheist so far on this thread has been willing to admit that they left Christianity due to a lack of research, assuming that they researched at all. Of course, if they want to give off an image of being 'rational' in dropping the faith, how could they admit to such a thing?! If I took the other approach, then I would've netted in more atheists on this forum, who likely did precisely what I've brought up in my OP and that's because I've caught others on other forums, in college, etc and even in other threads here, based on their misrepresentations of Christianity.


Just an example:
One atheist member who participated on this thread drew a conclusion that Christianity was sexist. After tracking down that thread (thanks to Benchwarmer linking to it), I also saw that he's another one that drew a conclusion about Christianity based off of INADEQUATE research because he only consulted ONE source, and perhaps even the wrong source. Now AFTER the fact, he or she is telling me in this thread that they did more research AFTER I told them what the problem with their conclusion was. ANd of course, if you believe that Christianity is sexist , then that's going to start leaving a bad taste in your mouth towards Christianity, and how much more is left before you drop it completely?! Some would drop the faith based on that one conclusion alone (although the real problem was this person's lack of research).

Do you think your OP and this post represent what Paul advised in Ephesians 4:15?

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.

My OP coincides with some of Jesus's teachings, like the following:

Gospel of Mark 4:14-20

14 The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.�

Jesus lists many reasons why people fall away from the faith that ties right into my point, especially vss. 16-19. I won't go as far as to say that Christians who lack a strong foundation (reasons/experience) for their belief are not real Christians, but as Jesus clearly shows, these are the types that are likely to drop-out unless they encounter some good intervention, and one good intervention is having the capacity to do RESEARCH.

With all that said, I pretty much have a representative sample of all of the questions, objections, personal histories of ex-Christians, replies to my discussion questions, etc that I could ask for, so I'm respectfully dropping out this thread. I'm just informing you guys of this so that when I don't reply to anymore questions then you know why.

[Bust Nak]

Just an example:
One atheist member who participated on this thread drew a conclusion that Christianity was sexist. After tracking down that thread (thanks to Benchwarmer linking to it), I also saw that he's another one that drew a conclusion about Christianity based off of INADEQUATE research because he only consulted ONE source, and perhaps even the wrong source.

This works better as an example of a Christian member who drew a conclusion about an ex-Christian's research being limited to consulting one source, based off an INADEQUATE research because said he only read ONE post of said ex-Christian.

Now AFTER the fact, he or she is telling me in this thread that they did more research AFTER I told them what the problem with their conclusion was.

So why exactly would you still use that exchange as an example, AFTER you've been told by the ex-Christian that he did more research than just consulting just one source?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 94 by OpenYourEyes]

With all that said, I've pretty much have a representative sample of all of the questions, objections, personal histories of ex-Christians, replies to my discussion questions, etc that I could ask for, so I'm respectfully dropping out this thread. I'm just informing you guys of this so that when I don't reply to anymore questions, you know why.

I'd like to ask you a bit of an odd question.

Why is it I, rikuoamero, am no longer a Christian?

I'm asking you this so that I can be satisfied that you have indeed been paying attention and are not going to say things about us that we have not said or indicated.

What are the reasons that I have given for why I am an ex-Christian, and what is your understanding of why I am such?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 95 by Bust Nak]

This works better as an example of a Christian member who drew a conclusion about an ex-Christian's research being limited to consulting one source, based off an INADEQUATE research because said he only read ONE post of said ex-Christian.

Like the OP, this is more than likely myself OYE is talking about. I never indicated that when I researched sexism in Christianity that I only ever consulted a single source.
Nope, in several comments, I made sure to specify that at the time, I didn't press my teacher on the issue. I thought I had been as clear as possible that it was only at the time that I asked my teacher that question that I didn't press him, but nope. Apparently failing to press my teacher right then and there means that I never pursued research in all the years since.

So why exactly would you still use that exchange as an example, AFTER you've been told by the ex-Christian that he did more research than just consulting just one source?

Because OYE needs to portray ex-Christians as being lazy, as not doing their research (as if the burden of proof is on them, but that's by the by). See his post 94, second to last paragraph.
OYE's entire thesis is blown completely out of the water if he were to acknowledge that those who gave up Christianity did so for quite valid reasons, and actually have done their research.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

IMHO your conclusions are way off base. The anti theists I know, myself included, were "lost" to Christianity only due to the nonsense that is accepted as "truth" to the religious. A religious person talking about "truth" is a working example of an oxymoron. Just like "reality TV", there's no reality there it's all fiction.
Listening to christian apologists always reminds me of a 5 year old explaining to a parent how the cookie jar got broken. The more he talks the taller the tale gets, as he tries to patch the holes in his story.
But really the biggest problem for christianity is the inability to provide solid, credible, science based proof of their god. If you want to take a swing at that proposition I have a topic running right now for just that purpose. In this sub-forum the topic is Proof of the christian god.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 39 by OpenYourEyes]

Also, keep in mind that my point does not apply to all former Christians. It only applies to those who left the faith prematurely or due to unreasonable reasons.

Hello! I have been reading through the posts on this forum, and this one sentence, caught my eye.

My friend, I seriously doubt that anyone wakes up in the morning intending to walk away from Christianity or any other religion, and as a matter of fact, I would bet that most had difficulty in walking away. Some, have grown up in homes where people in their families have been Christians for generations. Admitting to their mother that they no longer walk in the faith, would be very difficult. My point is, I believe that most thought about it....a LOT!! I don't think it was a decision based on being unreasonable, or flawed reasoning in general. I believe it was well thought out on their part, but they remained unconvinced...

Who convinces people of the truth of Christianity? Is it you, or me, or countless other people in the world? I don't think so.

My son when he was 16, rebelled against Christianity. He didn't believe, and he also didn't want to tell me. When I put it all together, I cried...I cried a lot. I didn't cry because he was loved any less by God, I cried because I was afraid. I was afraid of what his life would look like without Christ. He is 30, and last Easter was baptized back into the faith. I cried again...this time because I knew that despite all the rejecting of God, that God did not reject my son.

I didn't try to convince my son to return to Christianity...I prayed for him, and I loved him through some pretty tough times. I showed him the realness of God when he was overseas for 3 deployments, when he came home to a shattered marriage, when he drank himself into a stupor, when he received countless treatments for PTSD, and when he became a father to a boy he couldn't possibly parent at that particular time in his life. I gave him no lectures, just love.

Many things can draw us away, but hopefully love will bring us back.