Lets cut to the chase: Why should I be a Christian?

[notachance]

If you're a theist and are active on a forum called "Debating Christianity & Religion", then you probably believe that the value of Christianity is something that can be spoken for.

So here is the situation: I don't want you to tell me why you believe. I understand that for many of you, it has to do with a feeling in your heart, or inexpressible faith, or something along those lines, which would be hard to verbalize and to formulate into a cogent case for Christianity. As respectable a that is, and as good a reason it may be for you to believe, it doesn't help me.

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

Given the fact that I don't share with you that emotional connection with Christianity, given that I don't feel the presence of Jesus in my heart like you do, given that I guide my decision making and my opinion forming by rationality and common sense, what can you tell me along those lines to persuade me that Christianity is the way to go?

Why should I be a Christian? What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

[AquinasD]

Why you should believe?

That is something between you and God, so I cannot tell you. You have to decide for yourself what you value and how you come to find what you think is worth finding.

If you do not think you should be a Christian, that is probably because you should not be a Christian. If you come to think that you should be, you will be. It is up to you to decide why you should be a Christian.

That is, at least, a meta-psychologization that attended my own decision.

[notachance]

It is up to you to decide why you should be a Christian.

Well, yes I understand that. But is there no tangible information that I can look at to determine whether I should be a Christian?

Is there no good reason you can point to, for me to believe in Jesus rather than to believe in a blue monkey in the sky called Booga-Whooga?

I mean, for everything else you and I believe in, you can point to tangible reasons for our belief. For example, why do you believe that the world is not flat? Why do you believe that Boston is north of Washington DC? Why do you believe that Australia exists? Why do you believe that Santa doesn't exist?

For everything you already believe, and which you think would be good for me to believe as well, you can give me some kind of tangible data to help me form an opinion. Some kernel of empirical fact which might help.

For the veracity of Christianity.... nothing? It's entirely a toss-up?

You cannot help me in ANY way?

Come on man, why should I or anybody be a Christian?

[Janx]

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

I would like to introduce you to your new life as a Christian! Feast your eyes on our many perks:

- You get to be part of a "loving" and "caring" community.
- Your actions are justified by a higher power.
- You will never feel alone.
- You get your very own scapegoat (Satan)
- You don't have to learn biology or even science.
- You get to always be right in moral or philosophical discussions.
- You don't need to bother with complexities of logic.
- You get other people to do your thinking for you.
- You get access to business and social networking.
- You get to feel naughty while fornicating.
- You can get away with hate crime in many states.
- You get to feel superior and special.
- You can get elected president of the United States.

You get all this and more if you only say the magic words, "Praise Jesus!"
Make sure to accentuate the A in "praise" and elongate the E in "Jesus". Like so: PrAise Jeeeesus!

Welcome to your new life!

Legal. The Christian faith is in no way responsible for any detrimental effects caused by the indoctrination into our organization. God is not responsible for any illness, misfortune, accident or act of nature in your life. This contract is binding. Upon withdraw you will be required to pay a fee of eternal suffering upon termination of bodily functions.

[notachance]

wow. Really? No responses???

How can anybody still be a Christian when they can't point to a single tangible good reason?

wow.

How is this, right here, not the end of Christianity?

[tytlyf]

you just gotta have faith that it's the right thing to do

[Slopeshoulder]

I don't believe in apologetics or evangelizing.

And I wouldn't presume to suggest either that or why one should be a Christian.

AND as a (hypenated, schooled, progressive) Christian I utterly reject the characature that modern american right wing christianism has become (as summarized by janx). Just as there's a difference between bin laden and rumi, and between kahane and heschel or buber, there's a difference between modern american right wing evangelicalism and tillich, neibuhr, fox, spong, lonergan, tracy, kierkegaard, dostoievski, tolstoy, WS coffin, etc. etc etc...etc.

I'd only share 4 thoughts:

- Go where you're fed and don't buy into the choice-with-high-stakes palaver sold to you by evangelicals. That particular notion has done a lot of harm.

- Read the good stuff, don't judge anything by its worst examples. Would you judge music, possibly missing debussy and coltrane, because of the antics of a zillion miley cyrus fans?

- It never makes sense to believe against all reason. So don't. no credible theologian expects that, but kierkegaard had some good things to say about it.
(FWIW I call that belief. But I call faith what we do when we commit to a pattern of life and thought that is supra-rational, because it just feels deeply right in a way that is inexpressable: like to music or one's spouse/partner or a place. NOT all decisions have evidence, not really. Reasons sure, but not proof or guarantees that we are right. We just live into it at a certain point, in absence of proof and guarantees.)

- In making these faith commitments, we embrace a pattern of meaning and possibility. (See first point re: going where your fed). If the Christian pattern and possibility, the narrative, values, sensibility, language, comunity, concerns, goals, tradition, culture, etc, at their best, presented and considered in a way that is worthy of your smarts and soul, finally speak to you and pull you in more than other alternatives, go for it. Otherwise, and by all means, find whatever does, and live there within that. But please don't let it be something shallow, dissatisfying, or death-dealing; those are usually "false gods." When you get there, you'll find "God" there, and yea it will be good. But don't be a fanatic or zealot in anything. IMO it's the sensibility that gets us there that matters.

FWIW, I personally affirm my identity as Christian because it is the culture, language, heritage, art, philosophy and godtalk that I know best, both through uprbringing and cutural context, and from deep immersion academically. For better or worse, it's who I am. And, of course, I have found it satisfying (IF supplemented by other perspectives from spiritual and secular cultures). I NEVER tire of mining its mythic meaning from art, literature, philosophy and culture - the light and dark, finite and infinite, transformation, justice, love, incarnation, inclusion, paradox, hope, etc etc. I tend to resonate more with various eastern, mystic, and existentialist versions of it; and I despise calvinism and assorted american non-mainstream protestant or hardcore roman versions of it. I don't buy a word of that fundy nonsense, biblically or doctrinally. Including and especially atonement theology, I prefer at-one-ment.

So do what works. If you'll permit, if you're a professional improvizing musician, you've already "said yes to grace," as Rahner would say. And that's what matters. How you or I characterize it matters a lot less.

[AquinasD]

Well, yes I understand that. But is there no tangible information that I can look at to determine whether I should be a Christian?

It depends on what it would be that you decide it takes for you to be a Christian.

For example, I'm Christian because 1) the philosophy makes very good sense of the world and 2) a better case can be made for the Resurrection than the historical claims of other revelation-oriented religions.

But what are you looking for? Unless you're identical to me and what I'm interested in, your reasons for being a Christian will be different. Sure, I could guess that there's something important to you about the (let's assume in this instance) fact that a better case can be made for the Resurrection than the historical claims of other religions. Though, if you compare me to, say, Slopeshoulder, his answer probably revolves entirely around how well he think Christianity holds up as a philosophy that makes sense of the world, but you know that our philosophies are very different; he's a Catholic in the theological style of Hans Kung, while I follow more in the tradition of Scholasticism. I'd guess your philosophy has more assumptions founded on loosely Protestant notions about the world.

But, if you were to analyze the "case for Christianity" you might come to it through a total change of your philosophy or a total change in what you'd accept as good reason to be a Christian. I know that's what happened to me as I went from atheist to Protestant Christian to Catholic. So how do I know you might not start out believing that being convinced of the truth of the Resurrection would make you a Christian and end up believing that that's the wrong reason to be a Christian, but still choose to be a Christian anyhow?

I can, at best, point you to resources I found helpful in my journey or answer your questions in respect to how I believe. But I can't give you your reason to be a Christian; that has to come from yourself.

[notachance]

- It never makes sense to believe against all reason. So don't. no credible theologian expects that, but kierkegaard had some good things to say about it.
(FWIW I call that belief. But I call faith what we do when we commit to a pattern of life and thought that is supra-rational, because it just feels deeply right in a way that is inexpressable: like to music or one's spouse/partner or a place. NOT all decisions have evidence, not really. Reasons sure, but not proof or guarantees that we are right. We just live into it at a certain point, in absence of proof and guarantees.

Ok, but things like whether I love my wife or not, or whether I am moved by a piece of music, fit snugly with the concept you beautifully express with " a pattern of life and thought that is supra-rational, because it just feels deeply right in a way that is inexpressable". But what my wife's social security number is, or whether John Coltrane played the tenor Sax or the trombone, these things are not part of the realm of "that which you feel in your heart to be true in an inexpressible way". These are tangible objective facts. The fact that I "feel" that Coltrane played the trombone is NOT just as valid as the fact that you think he played the sax. For some things the "follow what's in your heart" model simply doesn't work.

Similarly, you might be moved when you look up at the Sistine Chapel, or when you sing in Church, or might feel the love of some generically defined "creator" when you look at a sunset. That's all fine. But there is no way around the fact that 9 months before Jesus was born Mary either had sex, or didn't.

So which one should I believe, and why?

- In making these faith commitments, we embrace a pattern of meaning and possibility. (See first point re: going where your fed). If the Christian pattern and possibility, the narrative, values, sensibility, language, comunity, concerns, goals, tradition, culture, etc, at their best, presented and considered in a way that is worthy of your smarts and soul, finally speak to you and pull you in more than other alternatives, go for it. Otherwise, and by all means, find whatever does, and live there within that.

Well, you're reducing Christianity to a philosophy. Are you then conceding that dogmatic concepts such as "heaven and hell" are in fact not real? I mean, you can only adopt your liberal and relaxed "anything goes as long as it works for you and you act like a good person" attitude, if you reject the notion that Christianity leads to heaven and everything else leads to hell. Without dogma, a religion becomes a philosophy.

FWIW, I personally affirm my identity as Christian because it is the culture, language, heritage, art, philosophy and godtalk that I know best, both through uprbringing and cutural context, and from deep immersion academically. For better or worse, it's who I am. And, of course, I have found it satisfying (IF supplemented by other perspectives from spiritual and secular cultures). I NEVER tire of mining its mythic meaning from art, literature, philosophy and culture - the light and dark, finite and infinite, transformation, justice, love, incarnation, inclusion, paradox, hope, etc etc. I tend to resonate more with various eastern, mystic, and existentialist versions of it; and I despise calvinism and assorted american non-mainstream protestant or hardcore roman versions of it. I don't buy a word of that fundy nonsense, biblically or doctrinally. Including and especially atonement theology, I prefer at-one-ment.

Well, I'l go out on a limb and assume that you would agree that Islam, atheism, Buddhism and any other worldview is potentially just as effective as your version of Christianity to get people to the point of inner peace that you seem to exhibit.

If that is the case, why don't you just stand up and straight up say "It is not true that Mary was a literal virgin. I base this claim on by understanding of Biology". That would be no less of a reasonable claim than "John Coltrane did not play the trombone, he played the saxophone".

So do what works. If you'll permit, if you're a professional improvizing musician, you've already "said yes to grace," as Rahner would say. And that's what matters. How you or I characterize it matters a lot less.

Well, sure as a musician I may have been in the brain state that some people describe as "grace". But that doesn't mean that the claim that "there literally was a great flood 6000 years ago" is not objectively false.

I really think that what you have is a personalized open-minded worldview/philosophy somewhat inspired by your Christian upbringing, but also greatly influenced by your secular education and your exposure to other philosophies. I don't want to risk going into "no true scotsman" territory, but I dunno if you're a Christian.

If the Bible is indeed the inalterable and inerrant word of God, than you are going to hell as much as I am.

[notachance]

Well, yes I understand that. But is there no tangible information that I can look at to determine whether I should be a Christian?

It depends on what it would be that you decide it takes for you to be a Christian.

For example, I'm Christian because 1) the philosophy makes very good sense of the world

no it does not. Christianity is non-sensical to the extreme. Exodus 20: Don't murder. Exodus 21: Murder your children. If that makes sense of the world to you, then I truly don't understand where you're coming from.

and 2) a better case can be made for the Resurrection than the historical claims of other revelation-oriented religions.

A better case can be made for Bigfoot than can be made for Santa. So what? Are you saying that you believe in the absurd story of the resurrection because in your estimation it's slightly less absurd that other absurd stories? That's not reason enough!

I can, at best, point you to resources I found helpful in my journey or answer your questions in respect to how I believe. But I can't give you your reason to be a Christian; that has to come from yourself.

Well, if we were discussing why I should believe that humans have 23 pairs of Chromosomes, you wouldn't be saying that.

That's because there is some objective truth to stuff like the number of chromosomes and the shape of the earth, and the chemical content of the sun, but no objective truth to Christianity.

Therefore Christianity is not objectively superior to any other worldview.

Therefore the notion, for example, that you can only get to heaven by believing in Jesus is of necessity false.