The "Plan"

[connermt]

Many (believers or no) like to say that we are living "god's plan" in that it was his plan: for man to sin and to offer up himself/son/self/son/self/son as a sacrifice to 'save his creation from eternal hell'.

Do you think this is his plan? If so, why? Why not another plan? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, yet he decided this course of action. Why do you think this is?

Or if you don't think this is his plan, why not? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, so why didn't he change the course the world's taken? Why do you think he would do this?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Many (believers or no) like to say that we are living "god's plan" in that it was his plan: for man to sin and to offer up himself/son/self/son/self/son as a sacrifice to 'save his creation from eternal hell'.

Do you think this is his plan? If so, why? Why not another plan? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, yet he decided this course of action. Why do you think this is?

Or if you don't think this is his plan, why not? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, so why didn't he change the course the world's taken? Why do you think he would do this?

This question all comes down to whether or not God is omniscient and omnipotent or not, doesn't it? If God has full foreknowledge of all things and does not err, and if God set existence in motion, then every single thing which occurs was a part of God's plan from the very beginning. Every thing that occurs does so right on schedule and according to God's original plan and will continue to do so until the entire plan has played itself out and has reached the precise conclusion that God intended it to reach when He first implemented "the plan." Should anything else occur then God will have FAILED. Which would be distinctly UN-godly. Of course many believers often declare that certainly God is both omnipotent and omniscient, but that He has no connection whatsoever to evil and is therefore not responsible for the horrible things that sometimes happen to the most innocent. That God I am afraid is a God that jumps through the hoops of their personal expectations and who serves at their whim to provide a comforting balm for their emotional requirements. In other words, make believe. But then what does that say for the other God who intentionally planned hydro-cephalic babies and the like?

[connermt]

Many (believers or no) like to say that we are living "god's plan" in that it was his plan: for man to sin and to offer up himself/son/self/son/self/son as a sacrifice to 'save his creation from eternal hell'.

Do you think this is his plan? If so, why? Why not another plan? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, yet he decided this course of action. Why do you think this is?

Or if you don't think this is his plan, why not? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, so why didn't he change the course the world's taken? Why do you think he would do this?

This question all comes down to whether or not God is omniscient and omnipotent or not, doesn't it? If God has full foreknowledge of all things and does not err, and if God set existence in motion, then every single thing which occurs was a part of God's plan from the very beginning. Every thing that occurs does so right on schedule and according to God's original plan and will continue to do so until the entire plan has played itself out and has reached the precise conclusion that God intended it to reach when He first implemented "the plan." Should anything else occur then God will have FAILED. Which would be distinctly UN-godly. Of course many believers often declare that certainly God is both omnipotent and omniscient, but that He has no connection whatsoever to evil and is therefore not responsible for the horrible things that sometimes happen to the most innocent. That God I am afraid is a God that jumps through the hoops of their personal expectations and who serves at their whim to provide a comforting balm for their emotional requirements. In other words, make believe. But then what does that say for the other God who intentionally planned hydro-cephalic babies and the like?

I have asked similar questions and the responses have been, basically: "We can't truly understand the will of god".
That's an excuse IMO. If we can't understand the will of god, then we can't understand god or what god wants of us. If god only allows us to understand what he thinks we need, is that acceptable? I say no. Knowledge is power and limiting knowledge is to limit wisdom and understanding, as is akin to "hiding" something. And what would an all powerful god be afraid of enough to hide it from us?
No the christian god is about as senseless as myths come IMO. And any "plan", if it exists, is a terrible plan and/or was created by a being that didn't really know what it was doing.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

I have asked similar questions and the responses have been, basically: "We can't truly understand the will of god".

This is the God who can be self contradictory as it becomes necessary. Which is to say; :"the God that jumps through the hoops of their personal expectations and who serves at their whim to provide a comforting balm for their emotional requirements. In other words, make believe."

No the christian god is about as senseless as myths come IMO. And any "plan", if it exists, is a terrible plan and/or was created by a being that didn't really know what it was doing.

The Christian God set the whole Garden of Eden plan into motion, and then condemned both sides in perpetuity when the intended result occurred. Satan will be punished eternally for the role into which he was personally cast by God in the offense, but humans were eventually given a way out through the act of God Himself shedding His own blood and dying and lifting the punishment for the original sin role which God had cast humanity into. And then God came back to life and flew away. Where is the senseless myth in that story?

[connermt]

I have asked similar questions and the responses have been, basically: "We can't truly understand the will of god".

This is the God who can be self contradictory as it becomes necessary. Which is to say; :"the God that jumps through the hoops of their personal expectations and who serves at their whim to provide a comforting balm for their emotional requirements. In other words, make believe."

No the christian god is about as senseless as myths come IMO. And any "plan", if it exists, is a terrible plan and/or was created by a being that didn't really know what it was doing.

The Christian God set the whole Garden of Eden plan into motion, and then condemned both sides in perpetuity when the intended result occurred. Satan will be punished eternally for the role into which he was personally cast by God in the offense, but humans were eventually given a way out through the act of God Himself shedding His own blood and dying and lifting the punishment for the original sin role which God had cast humanity into. And then God came back to life and flew away. Where is the senseless myth in that story?

Very true. I was looking at it from a common sense, outsider view, not the "world revovles around humanity" POV as it was written.

[ttruscott]

Many (believers or no) like to say that we are living "god's plan" in that it was his plan: for man to sin and to offer up himself/son/self/son/self/son as a sacrifice to 'save his creation from eternal hell'.

Do you think this is his plan? If so, why? Why not another plan? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, yet he decided this course of action. Why do you think this is?

Or if you don't think this is his plan, why not? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, so why didn't he change the course the world's taken? Why do you think he would do this?

This was NOT HIS plan; for man to sin and to offer up a sacrifice. HIS plan was to create people (for want of a better word) who could truly love and whorship and so enter a loving holy communion with a, ie their, GOD.

To do so HE created people able to make true free will decisions and a plan to deal with the fallout if any of these people should use their free will to reject HIS plan and become eternally evil or acccept HIS plan halfway and become redeemably evil.

This world is the perfect place to work out HIS perfect plan for HIS sinful elect by our perfect lives.

Peace, Ted

[connermt]

Many (believers or no) like to say that we are living "god's plan" in that it was his plan: for man to sin and to offer up himself/son/self/son/self/son as a sacrifice to 'save his creation from eternal hell'.

Do you think this is his plan? If so, why? Why not another plan? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, yet he decided this course of action. Why do you think this is?

Or if you don't think this is his plan, why not? Surely he could have done anything he wanted, so why didn't he change the course the world's taken? Why do you think he would do this?

This was NOT HIS plan; for man to sin and to offer up a sacrifice. HIS plan was to create people (for want of a better word) who could truly love and whorship and so enter a loving holy communion with a, ie their, GOD.

To do so HE created people able to make true free will decisions and a plan to deal with the fallout if any of these people should use their free will to reject HIS plan and become eternally evil or acccept HIS plan halfway and become redeemably evil.

This world is the perfect place to work out HIS perfect plan for HIS sinful elect by our perfect lives.

Peace, Ted

Let me make this simple for you:
His plan, according to you, was to create people to worship him.
He did that.
He also allowed them to fall (call it free will or whatever you want to excuse your god the term doesn't matter).
Because he allowed this to happen, this is also his will. Or it wouldn't have happened.
Being god, he could have (and should have if the storied claim is to be believed) done it differently. But he didn't
But because he allowed people to fall, his plan was to create people to worship him (very ego-centric by the way - unbecoming of any worth while deity) have them fall, then expect them to come running back to himself - a deity that could have done it differently and assured worship and no eternal damnation.
But, by popular christian belief, he didn't.
That's shameful.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

This was NOT HIS plan; for man to sin and to offer up a sacrifice. HIS plan was to create people (for want of a better word) who could truly love and whorship and so enter a loving holy communion with a, ie their, GOD.

Apparently then God FAILED to achieve the result He had expected and intended to achieve. How very UN-godlike of Him.

[connermt]

This was NOT HIS plan; for man to sin and to offer up a sacrifice. HIS plan was to create people (for want of a better word) who could truly love and whorship and so enter a loving holy communion with a, ie their, GOD.

Apparently then God FAILED to achieve the result He had expected and intended to achieve. How very UN-godlike of Him.

That's a very good point! With billions upon billions that have existed on this planet, the % that never loved him much be almost beyond measure. Looks like he's playing a number's game. And not winning.

[ttruscott]

This question all comes down to whether or not God is omniscient and omnipotent or not, doesn't it? If God has full foreknowledge of all things and does not err, and if God set existence in motion, then every single thing which occurs was a part of God's plan from the very beginning. Every thing that occurs does so right on schedule and according to God's original plan and will continue to do so until the entire plan has played itself out and has reached the precise conclusion that God intended it to reach when He first implemented "the plan." Should anything else occur then God will have FAILED. Which would be distinctly UN-godly. Of course many believers often declare that certainly God is both omnipotent and omniscient, but that He has no connection whatsoever to evil and is therefore not responsible for the horrible things that sometimes happen to the most innocent. That God I am afraid is a God that jumps through the hoops of their personal expectations and who serves at their whim to provide a comforting balm for their emotional requirements. In other words, make believe. But then what does that say for the other God who intentionally planned hydro-cephalic babies and the like?

[Bold emphasiss is mine to show the points I address.]

The problem is not whether but how...Christianity has long been held hostage by the contradictions contained in this issue. C. does not like me changing Christian definitions because the old ones are so easily attacked and the Church made to look foolish but hey, I believe what I believe and my belief that the doctrine is wrong must be dealt with, not me for believing in it.

1. Self Limits to omniscience:
GOD's plan of creation included by decree the ability to make a true free decison. IF HIS omniscience included the outcome of our true free will decions, then all HE had to do to keep hell empty is to not create those HE knew would end there.

The fact this did not happen is all the proof we need to know that HE limited HIS omniscience about the outcome of our true free will choices.

I have even learned how.

2. Omnipotence curbed:
Not only did He limit HIS omniscience but HE did not exert HIS omnipotence to pressure HIS creation to choose one way or the other. Nothing in our GOD created nature, nor our experience, nor our understanding or knowledge of reality impelled, propelled, constrained or coerced us to chose for HIM or against HIS plan for us.

Therefore our free will does not conflict with either GOD's omniscience nor HIS omnipotence.

3. Dealing with the fallout:
The possibility of one or more of HIS creatures self creating evil by their free will was planned for by the following characteristics of the relationship with GOD the newly evil folk would have to contend with.

Those who rejected HIS purpose for their creation outright and so became reprobate, never able to repent, would be removed from HIS presence, as HIS eternal enemies, to hell where their addiction to pain and destruction would be curbed.

Those who accepted HIS purpose for their creation were immediately given HIS gift of election to heaven and the gospel promise that IF one of them would ever choose to rebel and so become sinners outside of HIS will,

that HE would never hate them but would always love them and do everything HE had to do to return them to their first true free will decision to accept HIS will,

to redeem them by Christ and to sanctify them by the Holy Spirit until they understood the consequences of becoming addicted to evil so as to learn to hate evil and learn to cleave to the good until they were acceptable in HIS sight and able to fulfill their own choice.

HIS perfect plan to do all this for HIS sinful elect was implemented by HIS creation of the physical universe and the earth where we could live lives perfectly determined by GOD so to teach us about the suffering sin causes and its addictive nature as well as the reprobate nature of HIS self chosen eternal enemies,

so we could learn to become holy saints, ready to access heaven as predicted.

Peace, Ted