Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[Zzyzx]

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God is by definition, immortal. So no God worthy of the name can be killed.

Agreed. If a "god" (any god) is portrayed as immortal, it cannot die, part of it cannot die. That is the meaning of immortal is "not liable or subject to death."

Therefore, human sacrifice must have occured, according to Pauline theology. But ain't human sacrifice wrong, and condemnable.....?

Paulinity (AKA Christianity) promotes the death and "resurrection" of Jesus as a (or the?) fundamental belief in its religion.

In all likelihood a reformist rabbi was killed by powers he opposed, stayed dead, and was "deified" (and "resurrected") in the beliefs, wishful thinking, hopes of followers.

Paul/Saul evidently hijacked the emerging religion and infused his own preferences and preachings -- including tales about a "resurrected Jesus" -- that became popular with Roman authorities.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 60 by Elijah John]

Now one might agree that God can't be killed in heaven because nothing can kill it but surely you can agree that God could create an avatar to walk on earth and allow the avatar to be able to go through death.

Jesus is more than an avatar but first we have to get you to agree to the above.

And if you say God cannot do the above then you are limiting God's omnipotence.

[ttruscott]

...

I have observed disagreement between Christians and Christian sects about whether hell was "fire and brimstone" or "separation from God" and various other aspects far more fundamental than the temperature of hell.

Have those disagreements been settled into some universally accepted description of hell in Christendom? If so, by whom?

My rejection of the disagreement about hell was that it is fairly universally accepted by most Churches, though many individuals still adhere to universal salvation or annihilation.

Descriptions of hell do in fact vary but that seems to prove the consensus that a belief in hell is accepted.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Hell ain't a place; it's the company.

...

But where do that company be? Heaven is a state of mind but how is that state of mind kept clean if we live with and watch the bad company do their evil things?

Have you considered that heaven might be a telepathic communion link of pure love (an emotional connection) and holiness and the presence of the tiniest bit of evil will contaminate that link like the leaven goes through the whole lump?

This (if true) would require that the eternally evil ones be banished from everywhere where the communion link would be in effect before it could be instituted.

Even if hell has its "it is within you" counterpart to heaven as aloneness, they must have no contact with those in heavenly state for ever, neh?

Peace, Ted

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 37 by FarWanderer]

People sacrifice for themselves all the time. For example, I've sacrificed drinking soda for better health.

That means you are being wise. When you don't eat rotten food you are hardly being sacrificing. Why would that be different with candy drink? I think you are not using the word sacrifice accurately in your example.

But to the point, I still don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's not for lack of altruism, but for lack of personal loss that I say altruistic actions in the context of Christianity aren't genuine sacrifice. Personal loss is a necessary outcome of anything deserving to be called a "sacrifice".

There's definitely personal loss in sacrifice. Ask the Anzacs. Does the sacrifice have to be forever? Suppose I give (not loan but give) $1000 to a friend and they later repay it and in fact they give me $2000. Do I have to reject the gift? Was my sacrifice false?

What did Jesus's "sacrifice" cost him?

Well it meant that God had to be man. That he had to not experience the perfect unity of the Trinity for a time. God didn't need to do what He did. That's another important part of sacrifice.

What you are really arguing here is that the Anzacs that didn't die or get wounded didn't pay a cost. That would be obtuse and insulting to them. Why is it different for God?

But I think the point of sacrifice is not what the person that is sacrificing gives up but what the person they are sacrificing for gains. We gain the opportunity for salvation.

[Peter]

[Replying to post 42 by Peter]

Many try to live for the moment. Is that your solution/salvation?

Yes I think heaven will be endless joy.

Why sell yourself so cheaply?

Endless joy. Think about that for a moment. Endless anything sounds very unappealing to me. I suppose some god could wipe your memory every few minutes to keep the joy going but, really, who would want that?

Life is valuable because it's finite. Infinite life would be infinitely valueless if diluted by an infinity of time.

The only way I could survive in heaven would be if a god programmed me to. I could not be the person I am now in heaven. My head would explode.

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

Personally?

I'm looking around me right now. We have wars here, and nasty people doing worse things over there, and frankly, I don't think that there has ever been a period in written human history that didn't have humans going after, maiming, torturing, raping, killing, enslaving and otherwise committing mayhem upon one another.

............and getting rid of religion didn't work to fix that. The way atheists and secularists of all stripes brag about how religion is going away....we still have people killing, maiming, torturing, raping, enslaving and otherwise committing mayhem upon each other "in the name of' religion, yes...but also 'in the name of " (for the purpose of getting) money, land, power...

We have drug wars, human trafficking, white slavery, people arguing about borders....

That doesn't seem to have slowed down even a little bit.

Did we get rid of religion? Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all gleefully anticipating the end times and working toward it as quickly as possible. I've heard it said that if we woke up to see a mushroom cloud over Washington DC on CNN some people would see a silver lining in that cloud. The major religions are death cults so is it any wonder the world is in this state?

Given that, I have a sneaking suspicion that 'salvation' involves being with people who don't do that sort of thing.

Atheists?O:)

You know, putting the mean people over THERE, and those who would rather not commit, or be the victims of, such actions, over 'HERE.'

Now me, I'm not one of those 'name it and claim it' types. Nor do I think that having a single 'born again' experience ensures salvation...and I"m SURE no 'once saved, always saved' sort of person.

That said, I do think that those who decry 'born again' experiences don't quite understand how that's supposed to work. It's not a 'get saved, and then you can do anything you want and you won't go to hell for it" deal.

It's a 'get yourself saved, and it's such a life changing experience that you won't WANT to sin." As in, people who are truly born again, or saved, simply don't sin. They don't commit any of the biggies, anyway, and try very hard to repent quickly of the 'little' ones.

The thing is, someone who thinks he's been 'saved,' and who goes back to his sinning ways...wasn't really 'born again." "By their fruits ye shall know them' and all that.

Am I a sinner with bad fruit? Other than not really liking any of the current crop of popular gods I'm quite a nice fellow. Should a god need to threaten people and then offer then salvation from that same threat? What would you say about your neighbor if he did that to you? I'll bet you wouldn't think too highly of him would you?

That's how I understand it, anyway. Now me, I don't happen to believe that one can BE 'born again' and then not have to worry about it. One can, indeed, I think, lose one's salvation, if one turns away from it. Free will and all that.

Born again smorn again, one time was quite enough for me. I understand the concept but I think it's been over sold.

The point is, 'salvation' is to be with those who, hopefully like you, are more interested in growing, learning, loving others and creating things than they are in hurting, grasping for power over others, and are otherwise just plain nasty folks.

That's what we are supposed to be 'saved' from...living with folks we can't trust, who hate, and who would hurt others in order to gain some advantage.

Hell ain't a place; it's the company.

Very good point. If you're sitting next to an ass it really doesn't matter what the room looks like.

anyway, that's my opinion. that's what salvation is all about…and you notice that this sort of salvation is possible; not likely, but possible, right here in mortality.

I've long thought that this life is a series of hells and heavens. All we can do is minimize the hells and maximize the heavens. True appreciation of each can't be had without the other.

This life is exactly what I would expect if no gods exist so I can't put much stock in threats from apparently absent gods. If I find out differently when I die I'll be forced to say, "oops". I don't lose any sleep over that potential.

[UFO]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

It seems there needs to be something to be saved from, so original sin was created by some standards. It was automatically attributed to all humanity from the first humans according to the story.
Seems it was a means to be all encompassing no matter if we like it or not. We were forced into it and forced to accept it and the only recourse we have is burn forever according to many.
It doesn't make much sense when you consider the character God's suppose to have

[bluethread]

It seems there needs to be something to be saved from, so original sin was created by some standards. It was automatically attributed to all humanity from the first humans according to the story.
Seems it was a means to be all encompassing no matter if we like it or not. We were forced into it and forced to accept it and the only recourse we have is burn forever according to many.
It doesn't make much sense when you consider the character God's suppose to have

The character according to whom specifically? Generally arguments are made with a rather ill defined deity in mind. This, of course, leaves plenty of room sifting one's accusations. However, if one wishes to gain understanding, one needs to be clear with regard to the premises of arguments.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 66 by Peter]

Life is valuable because it's finite. Infinite life would be infinitely valueless if diluted by an infinity of time.

Suppose I took your wallet and took out all the money and left a cent. Would you say that now you have more value because it is less close to infinity than the amount I took?

You are confusing price and value. Air is cheap but extremely valuable. Life is cheap but extremely valuable.

Endless joy. Think about that for a moment. Endless anything sounds very unappealing to me. I suppose some god could wipe your memory every few minutes to keep the joy going but, really, who would want that?

And you know what is boring and unappealing - being dead.

The only way I could survive in heaven would be if a god programmed me to. I could not be the person I am now in heaven. My head would explode.

I hope so! You would be the real Peter, not the decaying one you are now.