Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[ttruscott]

...

What have you done that makes you be OK with the idea that someone else was tortured and sacrificed to a god concept over?

...

I think you miss the mark: Christianity teaches that God Himself allowed Himself to be killed as a sacrifice on our behalf; no human was sacrifice to a god...

A distinction I'm sure you can appreciate.

Peace, Ted

[Wootah]

...

I'm curious, if we are to accept this gift, must we also accept human sacrifice to a god concept?

...

No need to accept human sacrifice to a god at all... but you will need to accept the GOD's sacrifice of Himself on your behalf.

A fine distinction but easily understood by those who are used to defining distinctly.

Peace, Ted

Also and importantly is to realise that we accept human sacrifice now. It might not be as obvious as the Aztecs but by my reckoning most of the modern world is built upon sacrificing others for our own benefit. It's not whether you currently don't accept human sacrifice and are now being asked to accept Jesus' sacrifice.

It's whether you accept human sacrifice to deify yourself or you accept God's sacrifice to save you.

[ttruscott]

.

Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat?

There seems to be disagreement in Christendom regarding exact nature of the threat; however, most seem to agree that it originates with their God (and relates to a person's worship preferences and practices).

...

In post 8 I explained that salvation was from our addiction to evil, which is either a reality or not but not a threat, and from the judgment upon evil by YHWH, which, as a judicial consequence, is not a threat but a penalty...

This is all pretty normal Christian stuff so if you have any other info about why you would describe it as a "disagreement in Christendom" now is the time to tell me about it...or recant, eh?

Peace, Ted

[Zzyzx]

.

This is all pretty normal Christian stuff so if you have any other info about why you would describe it as a "disagreement in Christendom" now is the time to tell me about it...or recant, eh?

If you seriously / honestly are unaware that within Christianity there are many contrasting ideas of hell, I will cite sources to help you learn about those disagreements. However, it seems ironic that a religionist would not have encountered such information on their own.

[ttruscott]

.

This is all pretty normal Christian stuff so if you have any other info about why you would describe it as a "disagreement in Christendom" now is the time to tell me about it...or recant, eh?

If you seriously / honestly are unaware that within Christianity there are many contrasting ideas of hell, I will cite sources to help you learn about those disagreements. However, it seems ironic that a religionist would not have encountered such information on their own.

There seems to be disagreement in Christendom regarding exact nature of the threat...

Disagreements about the specifics of the temperature of hell is not a disagreement about the exact nature of this threat... I did not even know you were referencing hell. Am I too literal?

If that is all you meant, I will bow out,

Peace, ted

[FarWanderer]

I m arguing that we all face death and seek salvation from it in several ways.

From post 16:
You have a choice :
- to ignore the reality of death or
- be depressed by it or
- worse embrace it or
- live.

To choose option 4 to choose life you actually have to put other people first

Why?

, which is irrational and foolish, without Jesus.

How does Jesus make it rational?

[Zzyzx]

.

This is all pretty normal Christian stuff so if you have any other info about why you would describe it as a "disagreement in Christendom" now is the time to tell me about it...or recant, eh?

If you seriously / honestly are unaware that within Christianity there are many contrasting ideas of hell, I will cite sources to help you learn about those disagreements. However, it seems ironic that a religionist would not have encountered such information on their own.

There seems to be disagreement in Christendom regarding exact nature of the threat...

Disagreements about the specifics of the temperature of hell is not a disagreement about the exact nature of this threat... I did not even know you were referencing hell. Am I too literal?

If that is all you meant, I will bow out

I have observed disagreement between Christians and Christian sects about whether hell was "fire and brimstone" or "separation from God" and various other aspects far more fundamental than the temperature of hell.

Have those disagreements been settled into some universally accepted description of hell in Christendom? If so, by whom?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 56 by FarWanderer]

When we choose to sacrifice for others we are choosing life. We are putting other life ahead of our own which is foolishness outside of Christianity.

Jesus sacrifice makes it rational to put others first because our sacrifices are not in vain.

[dianaiad]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

Personally?

I'm looking around me right now. We have wars here, and nasty people doing worse things over there, and frankly, I don't think that there has ever been a period in written human history that didn't have humans going after, maiming, torturing, raping, killing, enslaving and otherwise committing mayhem upon one another.

............and getting rid of religion didn't work to fix that. The way atheists and secularists of all stripes brag about how religion is going away....we still have people killing, maiming, torturing, raping, enslaving and otherwise committing mayhem upon each other "in the name of' religion, yes...but also 'in the name of " (for the purpose of getting) money, land, power...

We have drug wars, human trafficking, white slavery, people arguing about borders....

That doesn't seem to have slowed down even a little bit.

Given that, I have a sneaking suspicion that 'salvation' involves being with people who don't do that sort of thing. You know, putting the mean people over THERE, and those who would rather not commit, or be the victims of, such actions, over 'HERE.'

Now me, I'm not one of those 'name it and claim it' types. Nor do I think that having a single 'born again' experience ensures salvation...and I"m SURE no 'once saved, always saved' sort of person.

That said, I do think that those who decry 'born again' experiences don't quite understand how that's supposed to work. It's not a 'get saved, and then you can do anything you want and you won't go to hell for it" deal.

It's a 'get yourself saved, and it's such a life changing experience that you won't WANT to sin." As in, people who are truly born again, or saved, simply don't sin. They don't commit any of the biggies, anyway, and try very hard to repent quickly of the 'little' ones.

The thing is, someone who thinks he's been 'saved,' and who goes back to his sinning ways...wasn't really 'born again." "By their fruits ye shall know them' and all that.

That's how I understand it, anyway. Now me, I don't happen to believe that one can BE 'born again' and then not have to worry about it. One can, indeed, I think, lose one's salvation, if one turns away from it. Free will and all that.

The point is, 'salvation' is to be with those who, hopefully like you, are more interested in growing, learning, loving others and creating things than they are in hurting, grasping for power over others, and are otherwise just plain nasty folks.

That's what we are supposed to be 'saved' from...living with folks we can't trust, who hate, and who would hurt others in order to gain some advantage.

Hell ain't a place; it's the company.

anyway, that's my opinion. that's what salvation is all about...and you notice that this sort of salvation is possible; not likely, but possible, right here in mortality.

[Elijah John]

...

What have you done that makes you be OK with the idea that someone else was tortured and sacrificed to a god concept over?

...

I think you miss the mark: Christianity teaches that God Himself allowed Himself to be killed as a sacrifice on our behalf; no human was sacrifice to a god...

A distinction I'm sure you can appreciate.

Peace, Ted

Ah, there's the rub. God is by definition, immortal. So no God worthy of the name can be killed. Therefore, human sacrifice must have occured, according to Pauline theology. But ain't human sacrifice wrong, and condemnable.....?