According to the Bible, Satan defeated God ~10,000 years ago, instilling death, evil, and imperfection into the world.
God was unable to do anything about it, except of course, punish the victims. Which he has done according to the Bible many times, including a terracide, and the promise of one to come.
We hear songs and such about his triumph and victory, but let's face it; God was completely trounced by Satan, and the only thing we've heard from him is a good talk and excuses. The sending of his son, didn't really do anything measurable, except fanfare.
So assuming the Bible is true and all that, but taking it it in the light of history, and with a grain of salt, just how long before we acknowledge God lost at the starting line, and has been defeated at every turn, since?
What does this really say about the entity?
When do we accept God's utter defeat?
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Willum]
If we are going to assume the Bible is true, then we have to assume that what it claims about history is true, thus the person of Christ becomes very important in whether or not God was or wasn't victorious.
Simply using the hypothetical you put forth, if the Bible is true, that means Christ is risen and God is the victor, in fact he was the victor from the very beginning using your hypothetical.
If we are going to assume the Bible is true, then we have to assume that what it claims about history is true, thus the person of Christ becomes very important in whether or not God was or wasn't victorious.
Simply using the hypothetical you put forth, if the Bible is true, that means Christ is risen and God is the victor, in fact he was the victor from the very beginning using your hypothetical.
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Willum
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by MuffMaYne]
If you would BOTHER to read the OP, you would see I did not give the Bible "Carte Blanche," you still need to explain despite Jesus' miracles, why God is still having his tooshie kicked by evil in the world, and he has been helpless to restore the world to where he desires it.
How is Satan not utterly victorious? OK, Jesus came, but Satan seems to be the winner in that as well.
Christ broken and dead on the cross, risen, but ineffective in terms of the impact on the planet... I mean what is the impact of someone we can demonstrate risen, risen?
Are we all not still dying, unlike the Garden, is evil not unchecked?
In short, aside from his press-corps, is there any evidence to say God is in any way victorious?
If you would BOTHER to read the OP, you would see I did not give the Bible "Carte Blanche," you still need to explain despite Jesus' miracles, why God is still having his tooshie kicked by evil in the world, and he has been helpless to restore the world to where he desires it.
How is Satan not utterly victorious? OK, Jesus came, but Satan seems to be the winner in that as well.
Christ broken and dead on the cross, risen, but ineffective in terms of the impact on the planet... I mean what is the impact of someone we can demonstrate risen, risen?
Are we all not still dying, unlike the Garden, is evil not unchecked?
In short, aside from his press-corps, is there any evidence to say God is in any way victorious?
Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by Willum]
As I said before, by your own hypothetical we are assuming what the Bible says is true, meaning Christs is risen and death and sin no longer have any power over people who accept Christ, so God is victorious. I'm only using the hypothetical you put forth.
Bible = true
If Bible = true that means God wins.
As I said before, by your own hypothetical we are assuming what the Bible says is true, meaning Christs is risen and death and sin no longer have any power over people who accept Christ, so God is victorious. I'm only using the hypothetical you put forth.
Bible = true
If Bible = true that means God wins.
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Willum
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by MuffMaYne]
So assuming the Bible is true, we look at the Bible as demonstrating clearly that God is utterly defeated, with the Bible and by the only saying (with no reality to back it up) that he is victorious. Lamest victory ever!
Like, oh, I don't know, any other bit of propaganda, You know like in the film, "Mars Attacks," where the Martians declare they "come in peace," even as they disintegrate everyone.
God declares victory over sin and death, yet failed, 10,000 years again, 2000 years ago, and every moment since creation and now.
Another way, do you deny that Satan was utterly victorious, according to the Bible, when man was cast out of Eden?
So assuming the Bible is true, we look at the Bible as demonstrating clearly that God is utterly defeated, with the Bible and by the only saying (with no reality to back it up) that he is victorious. Lamest victory ever!
Like, oh, I don't know, any other bit of propaganda, You know like in the film, "Mars Attacks," where the Martians declare they "come in peace," even as they disintegrate everyone.
God declares victory over sin and death, yet failed, 10,000 years again, 2000 years ago, and every moment since creation and now.
Another way, do you deny that Satan was utterly victorious, according to the Bible, when man was cast out of Eden?
Last edited by Willum on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #6I don't think that is an accurate summary of what the bible presents. One can allow something without being "defeated"which implies a loss of position and authority. If a parent allows a rebellious child to disobey his rules for a while, this does not mean he is no longer head fo the family or his child has defeated him. Perhaps he is giving the child time to learn from his own errors and mature or there are other reasons for his decisions.Willum wrote: According to the Bible, Satan defeated God ~10,000 years ago, instilling death, evil, and imperfection into the world.
Why has god permitted evil? (see link)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 277#381277
Jehovah (God) is and always will be the ultimate souvereign of the universe and nothing is or ever will be beyond his control. The introduction of sin, evil even death to the world, while being allowed temporarily, is not allowed because God had no power to stop it, but he chose in his wisdom to allow them, for good reason. A "defeat" implies the defeated authority is no longer in any position to fulfill their projects, this is not the case with the Edenic promises. As the Watchtower, February 2017 p. 10 para 9 puts it :
Jehovah is the Creator. Once he gives the word for something to happen, it is as good as done. (Isa. 55:11) He will not allow Satan’s rebellion to derail His purpose for mankind. From the beginning, it was Jehovah’s will for the earth to be filled with the perfect children of Adam and Eve. (Gen. 1:28)
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017287#h=19
THY KINDGOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH... but WHEN?
According to the bible, when Jesus was on earth he taught his followers to pray "Thy Kindom come, thy will be done on earth". This was effectively a prayer for the reversal of the effects of the Edenic rebellion and the establishment of the original garden-like perfect conditions on earth, free from war, suffering, disease and all the other ill effects of evil. While it has indeed been thousands of years, this was in keeping with God's timetable. Even in Jesus' day, when his (Jesus') disciples believed the kingdom (God's government) was imminent and the end to Satan's rule was near, Jesus corrected their view indicating it would be a long way off; but the end is now in sight!
Today, we see the signs that that time is finally here, and that the Kingdom has been ruling since 1914. Very soon, what the bible calls the final war of Harmageddon will arrive. The wicked will be destroy, Satan will be defeated, and the Kindom government will take full control of this our planet earth.
So "when do we accept God's utter defeat"? Never! Because such a thing can never happen. And when Satan, as Genesis says, is finally "crushed" in the head and his lifeless body cast into the "lake of fire" that much will be evident.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Willum
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #7[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]
Granted, the ultimate sovereign of the Universe who got completely and utterly defeated by a talking snake, and has been helpless to do anything about it since.
Well, he did uselessly cut the snakes wings off, and punish the victims, but aside from that...
Can I get a Hosanna?
Granted, the ultimate sovereign of the Universe who got completely and utterly defeated by a talking snake, and has been helpless to do anything about it since.
Well, he did uselessly cut the snakes wings off, and punish the victims, but aside from that...
Can I get a Hosanna?
Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #8[Replying to post 5 by Willum]
I don't really care if you think its a lame victory or one thats worthy of anything, thats irrelevant. You put forth a hypothetical, that hypothetical being "if the Bible is true"
If the Bible is true then God won from the beginning. To no be able to accept that, even when its your own hypothetical stating that the book is true is very odd.
Kinda reminds me of : For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and of sinners!
Some people just can't be satisfied no matter what, even if they're the ones making the hypothetical.
I don't really care if you think its a lame victory or one thats worthy of anything, thats irrelevant. You put forth a hypothetical, that hypothetical being "if the Bible is true"
If the Bible is true then God won from the beginning. To no be able to accept that, even when its your own hypothetical stating that the book is true is very odd.
Kinda reminds me of : For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and of sinners!
Some people just can't be satisfied no matter what, even if they're the ones making the hypothetical.
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Willum
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Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #9[Replying to post 8 by MuffMaYne]
I said if the Bible is true, taken with a grain of salt:
So God CLAIMS victory over the serpent, but the serpent cursed everyone for ten thousand years, with no end in sight:
Point: Satan.
Are you with me yet?
God can CLAIM anything. Let's go by observation.
So, if you are going to go by what I said, go by all of what I said.
Don't tell me what I said:
Every time a Christian does that, Satan takes a victory lap.
God says he won from the beginning, we observe he's had his lunch eaten from the beginning. Both allow the Bible to be true, the difference is press or perception.
I said if the Bible is true, taken with a grain of salt:
So God CLAIMS victory over the serpent, but the serpent cursed everyone for ten thousand years, with no end in sight:
Point: Satan.
Are you with me yet?
God can CLAIM anything. Let's go by observation.
So, if you are going to go by what I said, go by all of what I said.
Don't tell me what I said:
Every time a Christian does that, Satan takes a victory lap.
God says he won from the beginning, we observe he's had his lunch eaten from the beginning. Both allow the Bible to be true, the difference is press or perception.
Re: When do we accept God's utter defeat?
Post #10[Replying to post 9 by Willum]
Thats like saying assuming its true, but a little not true.
What you're saying is, assuming the parts I want to be are true, and the parts I want to be are lies. At that point whats the point of even engaging you?
Its either true or it isn't. Trying to leave loopholes in hypotheticals so you can freely claim anything you want is even more odd.
If the Bible is true in the hypothetical then what I said stands.
If in your hypothetical you can at your own discretion decide something is arbitrarily false just because then the whole topic is pointless.
Thats like saying assuming its true, but a little not true.
What you're saying is, assuming the parts I want to be are true, and the parts I want to be are lies. At that point whats the point of even engaging you?
Its either true or it isn't. Trying to leave loopholes in hypotheticals so you can freely claim anything you want is even more odd.
If the Bible is true in the hypothetical then what I said stands.
If in your hypothetical you can at your own discretion decide something is arbitrarily false just because then the whole topic is pointless.
