Teachings that transcend the teacher.

[Elijah John]

If Jesus was indeed wrong about the timing of his predicted return, that would indeed put a dent on the notion of his perfection and Divinity.

And presumably the notion that Jesus himself is the "alpha and the omega" the first and the last.

Or that "before Abraham was, "I AM".

In light of this, what teachings of Jesus do survive and still apply? What teachings of Jesus transcend the teacher?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

In the light of what I see as misunderstandings of scripture (I draw your attention to my earlier posts on this topic as supporting evidence for my position - see below), I do believe Jesus teachings do indeed still stand. In my opinion all Jesus teachings stand although our human interpretation of them may be in error.

... what teachings of Jesus do survive and still apply?

All of them.

JW

RELATED POSTS

I AM: How does " " (ego eimi) rightly translate?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 719#329719

Further Reading: How should the expression "Alpha & Omega" be properly understoood?
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.co ... omega.html

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

In the light of what I see as misunderstandings of scripture (I draw your attention to my earlier posts on this topic as supporting evidence for my position - see below), I do believe Jesus teachings do indeed still stand. In my opinion all Jesus teachings stand although our human interpretation of them may be in error.

... what teachings of Jesus do survive and still apply?

All of them.

JW

l

The OP assumes for the sake of argument that Jesus was indeed wrong about the timing of his return. Consequently, that would cast doubt on the notions that he was "perfect" or that the Bible is perfect, or that Jesus is "God".

In light of the parameters of the OP, I can think of several of Jesus teachings that do not depend on his perfection.

Namely, the Golden Rule, the two Great laws of love of God and neighbor, just to start.

Neither of those teachings depend on the perfection or Divnity of Jesus.

The OP seeks to find and determine if there are other teachings of Jesus that do not depend on his Divinity, perfection or even his prophetic ability.

Because if indeed Jesus was mistaken, the teachings of his supposed perfection and Divinity would have to fall by the wayside as well.

Many of the teachings about the person of Jesus, his identity as the eternal "Christ" would fall.

And if his supposed atoning sacrifice depends on his perfection, that would fall too. Even so, that would not mean the Father would be unwilling, or unable to forgive the contrite.

Jesus teachings about the Father's mercy could well endure. As well as his teachings about the right way to treat people. They endure as well.

"Love of God and neighbor" do not depend on whether Jesus was perfect, Divine, or right about the his 2nd coming.

Love of God and neighbor do not even depend on whether Jesus rose from the grave.

Jesus could indeed be dead even. But even so, the eternal Father could still be alive and still on his celestial throne.

And his teachings regarding love of God and neighbor could well survive him. The OP seeks to understand, are there other teachings as well, which would survive even the teacher's imperfection?

[Overcomer]

Elijah John wrote:

Namely, the Golden Rule, the two Great laws of love of God and neighbor, just to start.

Neither of those teachings depend on the perfection or Divnity of Jesus.

"Love of God and neighbor" do not depend on whether Jesus was perfect, Divine, or right about the his 2nd coming.

Love of God and neighbor do not even depend on whether Jesus rose from the grave.

Jesus could indeed be dead even. But even so, the eternal Father could still be alive and still on his celestial throne.

But given the fact that nobody can keep those laws perfectly, it means that we will all be condemned to eternity apart from God. We need a perfect lamb to die in our place, giving us his righteousness in exchange for our unrighteousness. And Jesus DOES have to be divine to be that perfect lamb. No other human being is sin-free and Jesus could only be a sin-free man because he is God.

When Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he meant that he came to fulfill the requirements of the law. He did that by paying the penalty for humanity's inability to keep the law. See Matt. 5:17. Animal sacrifices didn't do the job. See Heb. 10:4.

The entire gospel rests on Jesus coming to earth as God Incarnate and dying and rising from the dead. As Paul put it, "if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14).

[Elijah John]

Elijah John wrote:

Namely, the Golden Rule, the two Great laws of love of God and neighbor, just to start.

Neither of those teachings depend on the perfection or Divnity of Jesus.

"Love of God and neighbor" do not depend on whether Jesus was perfect, Divine, or right about the his 2nd coming.

Love of God and neighbor do not even depend on whether Jesus rose from the grave.

Jesus could indeed be dead even. But even so, the eternal Father could still be alive and still on his celestial throne.

But given the fact that nobody can keep those laws perfectly, it means that we will all be condemned to eternity apart from God. We need a perfect lamb to die in our place, giving us his righteousness in exchange for our unrighteousness. And Jesus DOES have to be divine to be that perfect lamb. No other human being is sin-free and Jesus could only be a sin-free man because he is God.

When Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he meant that he came to fulfill the requirements of the law. He did that by paying the penalty for humanity's inability to keep the law. See Matt. 5:17. Animal sacrifices didn't do the job. See Heb. 10:4.

The entire gospel rests on Jesus coming to earth as God Incarnate and dying and rising from the dead. As Paul put it, "if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14).

And if Jesus was wrong about his 2nd coming, (as for the sake of argument the OP suggests), then none of what you say here matters, it is simply preaching, the repetition of Pauline theology including his non-sequitors. Paul's theology crumbles too, if Jesus is not perfect, than he could not be the perfect "lamb of God", who takes away the sins of the world.

No, we would not have to keep the Golden rule perfectly, I think you are getting that from Paul. In the words of King David, God is merciful with our imperfections, for he knows that we are "but dust". One does not need to be perfect in order to be righteous, even in the "Old" Testament.

But even so, how would that refute the premise of the OP? That there are certain teachings of Jesus that survive the imperfections of the teacher?

And some do not?

[jgh7]

If Jesus is imperfect, then Christianity would be a lie and its teachings would be no different than that of a motivational speaker's for me.

[JehovahsWitness]

The OP assumes for the sake of argument that Jesus was indeed wrong about the timing of his return.

Oh, okay, I misunderstood, I thought it was an invitation to examine both sides of the supposition. If Jesus was wrong he was either "mad, bad or sad" because the mainstay of Jesus message was that his followers must be willing to die for what he presented as truth in order to gain a greater reward in heaven. Since we have no way of knowing what else he was wrong about, his listeners would be roped into a most dangerous game of Russian roulette with their lives and the lives of their children.

Was Jesus stupid asking for this kind of loyalty from his followers when he didn't know if they would be rewarded? Or was it his God JEHOVAH just too weak to transmit His message without error or too indifferent to try?

True Christians have paid a terrible price for their faith, they continue to do so even today, because they believe the promises Jesus made. As Paul said, if those promises are false (even if they were just honest mistakes), then we are the most pathetic of people, forgoing the best of life now based on a the guess of a penniless carpenter from Nazareth. That would not just be pathetic, that would be foolhardy.



For nominal Christians that pay nothing for their convictions this makes no real difference, but for those of us that stand to pay dearly for the strength of our convictions we must be sure of what we believe. Most of Jesus message was based on his claims of his messiahship, what is was, what he will do, how it will benefit mankind and how his followers must be willing to suffer in support of it. If this central theme was a incorrect, Jesus was a fool or insane or a liar. And if he was a fool or insane or a liar, why should I be a Christian and not a Buddhist? Or an atheist for that matter?

PLAY NICE

• The safest thing then would be to ignore everything that Jesus said of any weight (including claims of a spiritual world, His Father's house, the Kingdom of heaven, him being the resurection and the life, the redemption of sin, a paradise for a dying man, a miracle working Prophet, the lamb of God, The LOGOS with God in the beginning, fulfillment of all prophecy and the way to everlasting life... indeed why believe he was the Messiah (which means "Chrisr" at all?). In short it would not invalidate all of Jesus teachings, just 99% of it, leaving us with what amounts to "Play nice", nothing anyone in tune with their inborn instincts couldn't come up with on their own ... at half the price.

JW


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 457#833457

To learn more please go to other posts related to

"BAD JESUS" , "FARICATED JESUS" and ... JESUS OF NAZARETH

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]

"Mad or bad" That sounds like a variation of the CS Lewis false trichotomy. "Lord, liar or lunatic".

How 'bout human, and imperfect, but righteous still? Or what about the possibility that the New Testament itself was wrong about the notion of Jesus perfection?

That would not invalidate all of Jesus teachings, would it? Why should it?

[Tcg]

For nominal Christians...

What do you mean by the term "nominal Christians"?

How do you determine who this term applies to?

[Elijah John]

True Christians have paid a terrible price for their faith, they continue to do so even today, because they believe the promises Jesus made. [/list]


JW

You mean, "true Christians" of whatever denomination, right? Including Jehovah's Witnesses, and even including Trinitarians? Caution advised with your answer.

Do you mean those who are faithful to their Christian vision even in the face of persecution, no matter what their particular theology may be?

It is not just Jehovah's Witnesses who have suffered for their faith.