God creates only atheists.

[Jagella]

If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children). Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists. Creating us this way requires babies to be taught Christianity by their parents and elders which involves risk that babies may be taught the "wrong kind of Christianity," they won't be taught Christianity at all, they may be taught a "false" religion, or worst of all--they may taught that Christianity like all religions is a con game.

These facts beg the...

Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

I think it's safe to say that God could create us all as Christians, and it seems strange to me that he would not create us as Christians. Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods. Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

For further reading see Ryan T. Cragun's What You Don't Know About Religion (but Should), Pages 27-31.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Why does God create us as atheists?

IMO no one is created as an atheist. An atheist reviews the data and makes a decision on God. We are born without any knowledge. As such, no one is born atheist, believer or agnostic. They are born without knowledge of anything but what comes natural (eating, sleeping, pooping and breathing). Everything else it learned.

[Jagella]

IMO no one is created as an atheist. An atheist reviews the data and makes a decision on God. We are born without any knowledge. As such, no one is born atheist, believer or agnostic. They are born without knowledge of anything but what comes natural (eating, sleeping, pooping and breathing). Everything else it learned.

In my view, an atheist is a person who has no belief in any gods. Since newborn babies have no beliefs in gods, they fit my definition.

[William]

[Replying to post 42 ]

Jagella: In my view, an atheist is a person who has no belief in any gods. Since newborn babies have no beliefs in gods, they fit my definition.

William: This could only be the case if all atheists are babies.
Otherwise it is false dictum.

[Menotu]

IMO no one is created as an atheist. An atheist reviews the data and makes a decision on God. We are born without any knowledge. As such, no one is born atheist, believer or agnostic. They are born without knowledge of anything but what comes natural (eating, sleeping, pooping and breathing). Everything else it learned.

In my view, an atheist is a person who has no belief in any gods. Since newborn babies have no beliefs in gods, they fit my definition.

Having no beliefs in god would seem to mean you had to at least consider it. Which to me, isn't something you can do when you're first born.
But I understand where you're coming from
Just my 2 on how I see it

[Jagella]

Jagella: In my view, an atheist is a person who has no belief in any gods. Since newborn babies have no beliefs in gods, they fit my definition.

William: This could only be the case if all atheists are babies.
Otherwise it is false dictum.

I don't follow your logic:

If all babies are atheists, then it does not follow that all atheists are babies. Some atheists are adults.
If all apples are fruits, then it does not follow that all fruits are apples. Some fruits are oranges.

Do you see your mistake in reasoning?

[William]

[Replying to post 45 by ]

Jagella: Do you see your mistake in reasoning?

William: Yes I do. It is also the mistake in your own reasoning, due to your particular view on what an atheist is.

If you are going to argue for the default Human setting as applicable to any world view position, the better argument would be that "all babies are born agnostics".
Even so, the reasoning is based upon a mistaken premise that all babies hold world views.

The Creator does not create us with world views. These develop after the fact.

Human Babies are like empty vessels and as such - logically - cannot be labelled as being 'this' or 'that' in regard to any particular view, because babies do not hold views on things.

You are arguing that babies are like atheists, because they do not believe in any gods. A whale is like a dolphin, but that does not make all dolphins, whales.

[Jagella]

Having no beliefs in god would seem to mean you had to at least consider it. Which to me, isn't something you can do when you're first born.

Having no opinion about an issue can result from at least two reasons:

1. The person is familiar with the issue but doesn't care enough about the issue to come to a conclusion about that issue. The person is apathetic about the issue.
2. The person is unaware of the issue and therefore cannot come to a conclusion about that issue. The person is ignorant about the issue.

Babies fall into situation 2. Their lack of beliefs in gods result from being unaware of the issue of the existence of gods. Contrary to what you say, there is no need to have ever considered if gods exist to have no beliefs in gods. If a person, like a baby, never heard of gods, then they will lack belief in gods. You will lack belief in anything you've never heard of.

[Jagella]

If you are going to argue for the default Human setting as applicable to any world view position, the better argument would be that "all babies are born agnostics".
Even so, the reasoning is based upon a mistaken premise that all babies hold world views.

Atheism isn't a worldview. It is a lack of belief in gods. If a person does not believe in any gods--for whatever reason--then she or he is an atheist. Babies do not believe in gods, so they are atheists.

Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge rather than a lack of belief. As such, contrary to popular opinion, agnosticism is not a third stance regarding belief in gods. You can therefore be an atheist and an agnostic. You can also be a theist and an agnostic. But you must be either a theist or an atheist.

So you are correct that babies are agnostics lacking knowledge of any gods, but you are wrong denying their being atheists. Babies are agnostic atheists lacking both knowledge of and belief in gods.

[William]

[Replying to post 48]

William: If you are going to argue for the default Human setting as applicable to any world view position, the better argument would be that "all babies are born agnostics".
Even so, the reasoning is based upon a mistaken premise that all babies hold world views.
Even your statement "God Creates only atheists" is based on a world view. Since you are an atheist, therefore you have world views based on the belief that there is no Creator.


Jagella: Atheism isn't a worldview. It is a lack of belief in gods.

William: If you are arguing that the lack of belief in gods is not a contributing factor to your world view, then my statement "This could only be the case if all all atheists are babies" therefore makes sense.

It is my observation that those I encounter who claim to be atheists all have world views based upon the belief that gods do not exist. Do you deny this is the case?
Indeed, if this is your reasoning then it can also be said that theism or agnosticism are not world views either.

Indeed, while many atheist might hold the world view that all babies are born atheists, not all atheist even claim this to be a truth.

You might even find that if you examine how you came about this belief, you were very likely convinced of it, by atheists who are preaching this belief, and have joined with them in their spread of this fallacy.

Jagella: If a person does not believe in any gods--for whatever reason--then she or he is an atheist. Babies do not believe in gods, so they are atheists.

William: The difference being that there requires a reason in order for someone to become an atheist. This means that an atheist - 'for whatever reason' has made a choice based upon information.
Human babies on the other hand, require no reasoned choice to be babies.

Babies are not 'atheists' because babies have not yet gained the information required for them to choose to be atheists. In fact, babies have to stop being babies before this can occur.

Jagella: Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge rather than a lack of belief. As such, contrary to popular opinion, agnosticism is not a third stance regarding belief in gods. You can therefore be an atheist and an agnostic. You can also be a theist and an agnostic. But you must be either a theist or an atheist.

William: Importantly, to become any of these under the set list you have given, the question of a Creator has to be tabled. That is the the factor which determines the choices available to the individual.

In relation to the agnostic, a 'lack of knowledge' is ignorance, something a Human baby has bucket-loads of, so in that, a baby is closest to being an agnostic than an atheist or a theist is. But as I also pointed out, "Even so, the reasoning is based upon a mistaken premise that all babies hold world views."

The overall point being, that a Human baby is completely ignorant, and thus, that is the default setting of every human being.
Unless you are arguing that atheists are also ignorant in the same sense as a baby, then your claim would require evidence to support it.
From my own experience in interacting with those calling themselves atheists, these display having knowledge and their knowledge assists them in formulating views and even world views.

Jagella: So you are correct that babies are agnostics lacking knowledge of any gods, but you are wrong denying their being atheists. Babies are agnostic atheists lacking both knowledge of and belief in gods.

William: So what is this growth off of your claim?
Any one of us can ask a baby if they lack belief and knowledge about gods, and the answer will be different than what an agnostic or an atheist might give.
This is because the vital difference is that babies have yet to learn through language how to express any world view.
Agnostics atheists and theists on the other hand...come into those positions after they receive knowledge.

So no. Babies are not born atheists. They are born completely ignorant. Atheists, in comparison, are not completely ignorant.
It is that simple.

To reiterate. I have yet to meet any atheist who has not formulated a world view based upon his or her lack of beliefs in a Creator. This is because they cannot become atheists until they have developed a way in which to understand information through experience and choose to be atheists. Human Babies are incapable of being atheists, or holding any other informed position.

Perhaps your misinformed reasoning here is a fervorous attempt to try and convince folk to 'return to their true default setting of atheist'? .
Jesus did say 'unless you are born again' but he wasn't suggesting that we all become what the you believe the Creator created us to be...beings who do not believe in the existence of a Creator.

[Bust Nak]

It is my observation that those I encounter who claim to be atheists all have world views based upon the belief that gods do not exist.

Count me out. I am an atheist whose worldview is not based upon the belief that gods do not exist. My belief that gods do not exist is the result of my worldview, not the other way round.

More to the point, even if all who claimed to be atheists based their world views based upon the belief that gods do not exist, it does not make this a defining feature of atheists. What about these atheists who don't claim to be one?

Indeed, while many atheist might hold the world view that all babies are born atheists, not all atheist even claim this to be a truth.

Granted. This is not an universal believe amongst atheists.

You might even find that if you examine how you came about this belief, you were very likely convinced of it, by atheists who are preaching this belief, and have joined with them in their spread of this fallacy.

What makes this a fallacy, other than your disagreement?

The difference being that there requires a reason in order for someone to become an atheist. This means that an atheist - 'for whatever reason' has made a choice based upon information.

That does not apply to those who didn't become atheists, babies were born as atheists.

Babies are not 'atheists' because babies have not yet gained the information required for them to choose to be atheists.

Right, instead babies are atheists because babies have not yet gained the information required for them to choose to be theists.

Importantly, to become any of these under the set list you have given, the question of a Creator has to be tabled. That is the the factor which determines the choices available to the individual.

Again, does not apply in instances where people did not become any of these - babies are born atheists before choosing anything.

In relation to the agnostic, a 'lack of knowledge' is ignorance, something a Human baby has bucket-loads of, so in that, a baby is closest to being an agnostic than an atheist or a theist is.

You are still speaking as if agnostic is mutually exclusive to atheism. Quit it.

The overall point being, that a Human baby is completely ignorant, and thus, that is the default setting of every human being.

Exactly, atheism is the default setting of every human being.

Unless you are arguing that atheists are also ignorant in the same sense as a baby, then your claim would require evidence to support it.

Why? The conclusion "that all atheists are ignorant in the same sense as a baby" does not follow from the premise "atheism is the default setting."

So what is this growth off of your claim?
Any one of us can ask a baby if they lack belief and knowledge about gods, and the answer will be different than what an agnostic or an atheist might give.

You say that yet there you were, give us the same answers as an atheist might give - a human baby is completely ignorant.

This is because the vital difference is that babies have yet to learn through language how to express any world view.
Agnostics atheists and theists on the other hand...come into those positions after they receive knowledge.

Not so. While some of us agnostic atheists did return into that positions after we receive knowledge, we all begun in agnostic atheism in ignorance.

So no. Babies are not born atheists. They are born completely ignorant. Atheists, in comparison, are not completely ignorant.
It is that simple.

Not as simple as babies are born atheists because they are born completely ignorant.

Jesus did say 'unless you are born again' but he wasn't suggesting that we all become what the you believe the Creator created us to be...beings who do not believe in the existence of a Creator.

Or maybe Jesus was suggesting that we need to be born again to change from what the Creator created us as... beings who do not believe in the existence of a Creator?