What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

[Wootah]

Acts 9 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Conversion of Saul
9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. 4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?� 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?� And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.� 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

[Tcg]

Saul's story is full of first time occurrences he says came by no man only hearing voices sounds like mental problem

Another term for hearing voices is ‘auditory hallucinations.’

A hallucination is where you might see, hear, taste, smell or feel something that exists only in your mind.

Schizophrenia

While schizophrenia can include hallucinations, it invovles many more symptoms, some of which make normal functioning very difficult. The traveling, preaching, writing, and other tasks Paul is reported to have accomplished would have been extremely unlikely for one struggling with schizophrenia.

There are many conditions which can cause hallucinations. Paul's event seems to have been a one time occurrence. This would not likely be the case with schizophrenia.

Here is a list of what is called negative symptoms. There are other categories and this is just a partial list of symptoms:

• Negative symptoms: “Negativeâ€� symptoms are associated with disruptions to normal emotions and behaviors. Symptoms include:
  
  - “Flat affect� (reduced expression of emotions via facial expression or voice tone)
  
  - Reduced feelings of pleasure in everyday life
  
  - Difficulty beginning and sustaining activities
  
  - Reduced speaking
  
  https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/ ... ndex.shtml

It is unlikely Paul could have completed his evangelistic outreach while experiencing these symptoms.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Here is a list of what is called negative symptoms [of schizophrenia]. There are other categories and this is just a partial list of symptoms:

• Negative symptoms: “Negativeâ€� symptoms are associated with disruptions to normal emotions and behaviors. Symptoms include:
  
  - “Flat affect� (reduced expression of emotions via facial expression or voice tone)
  
  - Reduced feelings of pleasure in everyday life
  
  - Difficulty beginning and sustaining activities
  
  - Reduced speaking
  
  https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/ ... ndex.shtml

It is unlikely Paul could have completed his evangelistic outreach while experiencing these symptoms.


Tcg

Yes, it seems reasonable to conclude that, Paul wasnt suffering from schizophrenia, (or from hallucinations brought on my his terrible thirst). The reports about his ministry at least dont lean towards such a conclusion.





JW

Was the Apostle Paul bi-polar?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 285#965285

Was Paul schizophrenic? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 62#1003562

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 100 by Goose]

Most of your response is concerned with establishing historicity from second-hand sources. While this may be an accepted practice for a variety of historical claims, every single one of those accepted historical claims has an implicit empirical basis. The problem with the claims made by Paul and the "presumably" second-hand information in Acts is that they refer to supernatural events that have no implicit empirical basis. As such, the reliability of everything contained within those texts must be questioned including some of the claims that do have an implicit empirical basis.

To illustrate this point, consider meeting a random stranger in the park who proceeds to initiate a conversation with you. At first, the person seems to be describing an unremarkable account of himself walking to the grocery store a few days earlier. He talks about a few people he met along the way and mentions seeing an unusual looking dog tied to a pole outside the grocery store. So far, there doesn't appear to be anything about this stranger's story that appears to be imaginary or the product of a hallucination. All aspects of that account have an implicit empirical basis. However, in the last portion of his account, the guy claimed he witnessed an evil demon materialize in the grocery store in front of him. Furthermore, he claims this evil demon was violently throwing vegetables from the grocery store all over the place and creating a huge mess. Finally, he said the evil demon escaped to a hidden dimension when the local police arrived on scene. At this point, you have every reason to doubt the reliability of anything that stranger had to say including the bits about the people he met and the unusual looking dog. Even if the people he met and the unusual looking dog have a chance of being real, you cannot trust they weren't also a component of this stranger's delusion.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Here is a list of what is called negative symptoms [of schizophrenia]. There are other categories and this is just a partial list of symptoms:

• Negative symptoms: “Negativeâ€� symptoms are associated with disruptions to normal emotions and behaviors. Symptoms include:
  
  - “Flat affect� (reduced expression of emotions via facial expression or voice tone)
  
  - Reduced feelings of pleasure in everyday life
  
  - Difficulty beginning and sustaining activities
  
  - Reduced speaking
  
  https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/ ... ndex.shtml

It is unlikely Paul could have completed his evangelistic outreach while experiencing these symptoms.


Tcg

Yes, it seems reasonable to conclude that, Paul wasnt suffering from schizophrenia, (or from hallucinations brought on my his terrible thirst). The reports about his ministry at least dont lean towards such a conclusion.





JW

Was the Apostle Paul bi-polar?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 285#965285

Was Paul schizophrenic? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 62#1003562

2Cor.12

[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

JOURNAL OF NEUROLOGY
Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to theseecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. (Luke 1:21-23, 62-65) and concussion (Acts 20:9-12).
https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

EPILEPSIEMUSEUM
In old Ireland, epilepsy was known as 'Saint Paul's disease'. The name points to the centuries-old assumption that the apostle suffered from epilepsy.

To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits).
http://www.epilepsiemuseum.de/alt/paulusen.html

It has been widely supposed for centuries that Paul suffered from some form of epilepsy, and that he experienced occasional seizures. The evidence concerning the specific nature of his problem is not conclusive. But it is explicitly indicated in Acts that Paul once went 3 days without drinking. Heat stroke accompanied by severe dehydration (and the subsequent hallucinations associated with severe dehydration) can result in lasting brain damage and can result in a lifetime of periodic seizures.

[bluegreenearth]

JOURNAL OF NEUROLOGY
Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to theseecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. (Luke 1:21-23, 62-65) and concussion (Acts 20:9-12).
https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

EPILEPSIEMUSEUM
In old Ireland, epilepsy was known as 'Saint Paul's disease'. The name points to the centuries-old assumption that the apostle suffered from epilepsy.

To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits).
http://www.epilepsiemuseum.de/alt/paulusen.html

It has been widely supposed for centuries that Paul suffered from some form of epilepsy, and that he experienced occasional seizures. The evidence concerning the specific nature of his problem is not conclusive. But it is explicitly indicated in Acts that Paul once went 3 days without drinking. Heat stroke accompanied by severe dehydration (and the subsequent hallucinations associated with severe dehydration) can result in lasting brain damage and can result in a lifetime of periodic seizures.

This seems like a very plausible scenario. I'm not entirely sure how a supernatural resurrection could be a more plausible or even a possible explanation for Paul's experience. In fact, given the reasonableness of the epilepsy hypothesis, the supernatural resurrection hypothesis is nothing less than an embarrassment for anyone compelled by faith to defend it.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 124 by Tired of the Nonsense]

I've had two friends who suffered with epilepsy. One of them had a seizure while he was piloting the boat we were fishing from. He almost fell overboard.

What I observed closely matches the description of Paul's ordeal. It seems to be the most likely match although there are other options.


Tcg

[Goose]

Most of your response is concerned with establishing historicity from second-hand sources.

Right and you’ve not responded to those historical arguments. The fact is, much of ancient history comes down to us from second hand sources or worse. By comparison Acts represents very good historical evidence to support the claim that Paul’s companions experienced something.

While this may be an accepted practice for a variety of historical claims, every single one of those accepted historical claims has an implicit empirical basis.

Yeah you keep saying that ad nauseam. But you just can’t seem to explain why it is the case that I’m obligated to hold your view.

The problem with the claims made by Paul and the "presumably" second-hand information in Acts is that they refer to supernatural events that have no implicit empirical basis.

We’ve been over this. That may be a problem for you because you limit explanations to those that have an “implicit empirical basis.� But you just can’t seem to explain why it is the case that it ought to be a problem for me as well.

As such, the reliability of everything contained within those texts must be questioned including some of the claims that do have an implicit empirical basis.

This kind of unreasonable hyper-skepticism is, in my experience, championed by those who have read very little of the primary sources from ancient history. As soon as one begins to read these sources it becomes self evident virtually all of them are laced with references to supernatural events and entities. With this kind of unreasonable hyper-scepticism we can’t know anything from history because the reliability of virtually ever ancient source is called into question if we are to be consistent in how we apply this reasoning. Even the mundane events from ancient history you think have an “implicit empirical basis� can’t be said to be historical because the vast majority of ancient sources make reference to supernatural events and entities at some point throughout the work.

To illustrate this point, consider meeting a random stranger in the park who proceeds to initiate a conversation with you.

Your analogy doesn’t work. We aren’t talking about someone who walks up to me and starts a conversation. We are talking about events that took place thousands of years ago.

[Goose]

JOURNAL OF NEUROLOGY
Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to theseecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. (Luke 1:21-23, 62-65) and concussion (Acts 20:9-12).
https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

EPILEPSIEMUSEUM
In old Ireland, epilepsy was known as 'Saint Paul's disease'. The name points to the centuries-old assumption that the apostle suffered from epilepsy.

To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits).
http://www.epilepsiemuseum.de/alt/paulusen.html

It has been widely supposed for centuries that Paul suffered from some form of epilepsy, and that he experienced occasional seizures. The evidence concerning the specific nature of his problem is not conclusive. But it is explicitly indicated in Acts that Paul once went 3 days without drinking. Heat stroke accompanied by severe dehydration (and the subsequent hallucinations associated with severe dehydration) can result in lasting brain damage and can result in a lifetime of periodic seizures.

This seems like a very plausible scenario. I'm not entirely sure how a supernatural resurrection could be a more plausible or even a possible explanation for Paul's experience. In fact, given the reasonableness of the epilepsy hypothesis, the supernatural resurrection hypothesis is nothing less than an embarrassment for anyone compelled by faith to defend it.

Landsborough's argument that Paul may have had an attack of temporal lobe epilepsy on the road to Damascus was challenged, if not outright refuted, in a follow up article published in the Journal of Neurology by Dr. Brorson and Brewer in 1988.

• “Sir: There have been many efforts to explain the dramatic spiritual conversion of the Apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus). It has been postulated that his conversion experience was a manifestation of temporal lobe epilepsy.' However, we would argue that this diagnosis can only be speculative. It requires the simultaneous occurrence of rare phenomena, selective reading of the biblical texts ignoring several important statements, and still it constructs a scenario marred by inconsistencies. Paul's conversion (Acts 9: 3-9, Acts 22:4-11, and Acts 26:9-18) took place while he was journeying to Damascus to arrest Christians. On the road he was blinded by a bright light, he fell to the ground, and he heard a voice saying "Saul, why do you persecute me?" He replied "who are you, Lord?" He was answered "I am Jesus whom you persecute," and instructed to go to Damascus, where he regained his vision after three days of blindness. Dr Landsborough postulates that Paul's experience can be ascribed to an "attack of (temporal lobe epilepsy), perhaps ending in a convulsion, which was startling and dramatic. The blindness which followed may have been post-ictal."' This explanation requires the coincidence of an intense emotional aura recalled as being pleasurable, with a prolonged post-ictal cortical blindness. Both of these phenomena, as pointed out by Dr Landsborough's own review, are rare as manifestations of epilepsy. An analysis of this event can only be made from the descriptions preserved in the biblical text; Dr Landsborough's review carefully examines portions of the text but ignores some other key points. A fact omitted is that the people travelling with Paul are also described as hearing the voice (Acts 9: 7) or seeing the light (Acts 22: 9). In addition, all of the people travelling with him are said to have fallen at the event (Acts 26: 14). These descriptions are inconsistent with an epileptic explanation for Paul's experience. There are other problems with this explanation for Paul's conversion. When cortical blindness has been reported as a post-ictal phenomenon it has followed generalised motor ("grand-mal") seizures, with gradual return of vision over hours to days.2 In five described cases of ictal blindness accompanying occipital status epilepticus, the two patients who had bilateral blindness persisting inter-ictally both manifested depressed mental states. In addition, the patients described showed the lack of awareness of their deficits which is characteristic of cortical blindness.3 In contrast, no mention of a convulsion is made in any of the descriptions of Paul's conversion, nor elsewhere in reference to his life; furthermore, Paul was honoured as a spiritual leader in a culture which may have interpreted a seizure as a sign of demonic influence. There is no indication of any confusion or stupor during the events of Paul's conversion. Paul's distinct memory of his experiences on the Damascus road, including and following the bright light and blindness (Acts 22: 11), would be quite unusual for the events during and after a complex partial or generalised seizure. Furthermore, he apparently was immediately and desperately aware of his deficit, unlike the typical Anton's syndrome of cortical blindness. Finally, unlike the expected gradual resolution seen in the post-ictal states, Paul's blindness remitted in the sudden fashion described by "immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight" (Acts 9: 18). The Acts of the Apostles, which records the events shaping the faith of the early Christian church, is ascribed to Luke, a physician (Colossians 4: 14) who was a companion to Paul in many of the subsequent events which are described in the book. He is noted to be a careful observer of the cultural, political, and geographical facts pertinent to his story.4 How one interprets his descriptions of the conversion of Paul is, of course, highly dependent on one's presuppositions regarding supernatural workings in the natural world; however, the information available does not suggest epilepsy. “- JAMES R BRORSON Department of Neurology, The University ofPennsylvania, 3400 Spruce St, Philadelphia PA19104, USA KATHLEEN BREWER The Comprehensive Epilepsy Center, The Graduate Hospital, Philadelphia, PA, USA

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1033172/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 1-0142.pdf

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 128 by Goose]

A fact omitted is that the people travelling with Paul are also described as hearing the voice (Acts 9: 7) or seeing the light (Acts 22: 9).

This "fact" was provided by the stricken man, Paul. A man who was subject to delirium as a result of being severely dehydrated. Paul's traveling companions provided no facts at all. Paul indicates that his traveling companions saw a light and heard a voice. Paul also indicates that during his affliction he had a conservation with a dead man. Paul may well have genuinely believed this. The reasons for us to discount the truth of Paul's beliefs today are also genuine, however.

In addition, all of the people travelling with him are said to have fallen at the event (Acts 26: 14). These descriptions are inconsistent with an epileptic explanation for Paul's experience.

Again, according to Paul the afflicted man.

furthermore, Paul was honoured as e spiritual leader in a culture which may have interpreted a seizure as a sign of demonic influence.

2Cor.12
[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul describes himself as being a victim of "the messenger of Satan."

The Acts of the Apostles, which records the events shaping the faith of the early Christian church, is ascribed to Luke, a physician (Colossians 4: 14) who was a companion to Paul in many of the subsequent events which are described in the book.

There is nothing connecting the "beloved physician" mentioned in Colossians to the author of Acts of the Apostles and the Gospel According to Luke, other than the name "Luke" (a common name), and 2,000 years of Christians declaring that it must necessarily be so.

An analysis of this event can only be made from the descriptions preserved in the biblical text;

The information that exists is not sufficient to conclusively conclude that Paul suffered from epilepsy. I agree, and I said as much. What is conclusive, based on Acts, is that Paul experienced severe dehydration while traveling to Damascus. The reason this occurred can only be speculated about. But the information that is at hand, being severely dehydrated, fully explains Paul's bouts of delusion.

[Zzyzx]

.
Speaking of delusion, Paul/Saul also referred to a trip to 'Third Heaven'.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

It is suggested that refers to a time when he was stoned at Lystra and left for dead.

Do the tales of 'visions' suggest a man of multiple delusions?