God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[myth-one.com]

Can anyone defend the concept of everlasting torment being administered as an act of love?

No need. As I've said, myth-one -- countless times, now -- God is not the administrator of the torment. God is not a tormentor. Yet again, the torment suffered in hell by the wicked is an anguish and disappointment (to put it mildly, I guess) within the individual himself/herself.

Yes, God most assuredly is love.

Grace and peace to you.

God created man, gave man commandments, and defined the consequences of obeying or disobeying His commandments.

==============================================

You have stated previously that all mankind will exist forever after having been created.

Since you grant everlasting existence to all mankind, you are forced into believing that nonbelievers will be tormented eternally.

So the root cause of your false belief that nonbelievers will be tormented forever, is your original false belief in mankind's immortality.

The wages of sin as defined in the scriptures is death.

But you cannot possibly accept that biblical truth as you "know" that all mankind has an everlasting existence and cannot die.

===========================================

Anyways, your response did not successfully defend the concept of everlasting torment being administered as an act of love.

Saying that God is not the administrator of the torment is comical.

God defined the rules!

You do not understand them.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 98 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

Hell is what will also happen on the last day, to those who are unable to escape the power of The Second Death, which the metaphoric lake of fire symbolises.

Pinseeker replied:

It's a real place where the dead will be sent on the last day. God will give to each what they have chosen. Again, I agree that the lake of fire is metaphoric, a lake is a physical place (like Lake Tahoe, Lake Titicaca, or Lake Victoria). So yes, the lake of fire symbolizes the eternal, physical destination of those who experience the second death.

No, hell is not a real place where the dead will be sent to a destination where they will self-torment for eternity, which you say is what they have chosen.

Hell is the judgment decision chosen by God for all who have not chosen His free gift of eternal life.

They will be raised to mortal life(as Lazarus was)to hear and react to their own negative verdict of the Second Death, the killing of their soul, their very being and existence. That will then be administered, leaving their carcass to be dealt with in the metaphorical Gehenna/lake of fire.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 98 by PinSeeker]

There is absolutely no inference anywhere in Scripture that unrepentant sinners (unbelievers) are wiped from existence.

I gave you this one last time:

"And Isaiah 47:14, "Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up".

Again, whether those that reside there continue to sin or not is irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is very relevant, because in your scenario it is quite obvious and quite damaging.

Gnashing of teeth" is something God will imprison sinful man to live with for eternity, and God Himself will indulge this situation for all time?

The mind boggles, the spirit reacts and firmly rejects any such notion.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 98 by PinSeeker]

Checkpoint wrote:

Isaiah 33:14, "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

Pinseeker wrote:

Yes, it is hard to imagine dwelling in everlasting burning. But so it will be for the wicked/unrepentant.

Maybe it's hard to imagine because it won't be as you assume it will be.

The questions the sinner asks are rhetorical. "Who can dwell" means "No one can dwell".

God is a consuming fire, and thus when its everlasting burning comes into contact with sinners they are consumed, devoured, and are put out of existence.

Checkpoint wrote:

And Isaiah 47:14, "Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. There will be no coals to warm them or fire to sit beside".

Pinseeker wrote:

Yes, they cannot deliver themselves from this judgment, which is complete and inescapable. There will certainly be no redemption or comfort to be found. It's terrifying. And that, to me, is putting it rather mildly.

Their judgment is indeed inescapable. When carried out, they will be unable to "deliver themselves from the power of the flame". It will consume them.

They will be "like stubble; the fire will burn them up".

That is "God's truth about hell".

What you find "terrifying" will not be; it is not "God's truth about hell".

May the Lord bless and keep you.

[Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, can you sum this all up for us, to clearly get across your point?


.

Well now, onewithhim, you have seen a need, perhaps you can meet that need for our readers?

I agree, we need to clearly get across each hell point, and effectively counter anyone's major differences.

I didn't understand your point in that post. Would you reiterate please?


.

Sorry. For you, and perhaps others, that post of mine bombed.

Guess my point was the usual, what hell is and is not, so in that you have no problem, I think.

But in that post I introduced something a little different, which may have been difficult for you.

That is, that God is both light and a consuming fire, and these are directly linked as being His positive light and His negative consuming fire.

If you don't get that or think it does not have relevance, fair enough, we can leave it there.

But if you want to discuss it, be my guest!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 101 by myth-one.com]

From myth-one.com to Pinseeker:

You have stated previously that all mankind will exist forever after having been created.

Since you grant everlasting existence to all mankind, you are forced into believing that nonbelievers will be tormented eternally.

So the root cause of your false belief that nonbelievers will be tormented forever, is your original false belief in mankind's immortality.

The wages of sin as defined in the scriptures is death.

But you cannot possibly accept that biblical truth as you "know" that all mankind has an everlasting existence and cannot die.

Yes, something like that.

A wrong starting point automatically leads in the wrong direction.

The false pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul is the root, which makes eternal torment seem obvious and inevitable.

Of course, along the way another yarn is spun, that death does not mean death., but life in another place, forever.

[onewithhim]

Checkpoint, can you sum this all up for us, to clearly get across your point?


.

Well now, onewithhim, you have seen a need, perhaps you can meet that need for our readers?

I agree, we need to clearly get across each hell point, and effectively counter anyone's major differences.

I didn't understand your point in that post. Would you reiterate please?


.

Sorry. For you, and perhaps others, that post of mine bombed.

Guess my point was the usual, what hell is and is not, so in that you have no problem, I think.

But in that post I introduced something a little different, which may have been difficult for you.

That is, that God is both light and a consuming fire, and these are directly linked as being His positive light and His negative consuming fire.

If you don't get that or think it does not have relevance, fair enough, we can leave it there.

But if you want to discuss it, be my guest!

I will say this---Jehovah is light, and he is a consuming fire. Both are positive. He is a consuming fire for the good of his creations. He gets rid of bad things so that the good can prevail.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 106 by Checkpoint]

Isn't that a hoot, though? Death does not mean death. Can one really wrap one's mind around that? God says that death is the "wage" that one earns from sin, and yet people say that that means something else. Death is really life. Life in torturous conditions forever. (Reasonable people---go figure.)


.

[PinSeeker]

No, hell is not a real place where the dead will be sent to a destination where they will self-torment for eternity, which you say is what they have chosen.

Yes, hell is a real place where the dead will be sent for eternity. In this place, they will forever regret -- to put it mildly -- being wise in their own eyes and choosing themselves rather than God and His offer of salvation, walking according to His statutes, and glorifying Him. It will be a perpetual anguish and torment for them, and surely not voluntary.

They will be raised to mortal life(as Lazarus was) to hear and react to their own negative verdict of the Second Death, the killing of their soul, their very being and existence. That will then be administered, leaving their carcass to be dealt with in the metaphorical Gehenna/lake of fire.

Such is your misshapen opinion. Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 101 by myth-one.com]

From myth-one.com to Pinseeker:

You have stated previously that all mankind will exist forever after having been created.

Since you grant everlasting existence to all mankind, you are forced into believing that nonbelievers will be tormented eternally.

So the root cause of your false belief that nonbelievers will be tormented forever, is your original false belief in mankind's immortality.

The wages of sin as defined in the scriptures is death.

But you cannot possibly accept that biblical truth as you "know" that all mankind has an everlasting existence and cannot die.

Yes, something like that.

No, nothing like that, in any shape, form, or fashion.

A wrong starting point automatically leads in the wrong direction.

This I agree with. This is what I've been telling you both for some time now. You would do well to heed this advice.

...along the way another yarn is spun, that death does not mean death., but life in another place, forever.

Physical death and spiritual death are two very different things in the Bible. While denial of this fact is certainly possible, it is not recommended. Even so, not understanding this correctly does not make one "not a Christian."

God created man in Their image, in Their likeness (Genesis 1:26). This very fact eliminates the possibility of ceasing to exist (among other things). Since this is true, from the point of existence on, the question regarding eternity for every man or woman born is whether he or she will exist eternally in life (in God's glory, in His marvelous light) or in death (not in God's glory, in outer darkness).

Ironically, what you both accuse me of turns right back around and, based upon what you have said, falls on your own heads. In Genesis 2:17, God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit, they would surely die in that very day. Shortly after, Satan convinced Eve that she and Adam would not die but rather be like God. Being deceived, she and Adam disobeyed God and ate of the fruit of the tree. Thus, just as God said would happen, they died -- became dead in their sin. And here is where you and myth-one and everyone who believes the heresy of annihilationism are deceived also. You believe that Adam and Eve did not really die, which was exactly what Eve was deceived into believing -- by Satan. It's not I who believes the lie of Satan, but you. I know you don't WANT to "choose to believe Satan's lie," but such is nevertheless the case. Annihilationism is totally antithetical to Scripture and is a heresy.

Grace and peace to you.