God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[myth-one.com]

God created man as mortal and every man and woman must accept or reject everlasting life.

Ah!!! Back that up Scripturally, myth-one. Where in the Bible -- anywhere, from Genesis to Revelation -- does it say that, either literally or figuratively, explicitly or implicitly?

1) The Bible states that there are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

2) Each of these two body types defined in the Bible require a separate and distinct type of birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

3) In addition, the two body types are never said to be mixed. In regards to man, the natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last if at all:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

All men are born as natural or physical flesh and blood bodies, and those who believe in Jesus will be born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodies upon the return of Jesus!

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4) Writing to the Christians at Corinth, here is how Paul puts it:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the natural physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodied beings!

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5) The same breath of life was breathed into all of the animals God created:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Although man has no preeminence above a beast at birth, man is the only animal born of the flesh which has the capability of becoming born again as a spirit.

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6) When the words "eternal life" or "everlasting life" are used in the Bible, they are used in phrases such as: inherit eternal life, the gift of eternal life, or the promise of everlasting life. It is never mentioned as something one is born with, but something that Christians shall inherit in the future:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundred-fold, and shall inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:29)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (I John 2:25)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

7) All we have to do is accept or reject this gift of eternal life:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

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8) So the reward of believers is everlasting life.

And the punishment for nonbelievers is the everlasting death of their physical bodies.

Nonbelievers will never live again after their "second death."

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Which of these numbered points do you reject, and why?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 141 by myth-one.com]

8) So the reward of believers is everlasting life.

And the punishment for nonbelievers is the everlasting death of their physical bodies.

Yes and yet no!

Eternal life is sometimes said to be a reward. However, it is more often said to be a gift, as in some of your quotes in your post.

Eternal punishment is not the death of only their physical body, but of their soul, their being.

I think you already know that; I'm really just finding a reason to say hi.

Hello, myth-one.com!

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 110 by PinSeeker]

God created man in Their image, in Their likeness (Genesis 1:26). This very fact eliminates the possibility of ceasing to exist (among other things). Since this is true,

It does eliminate that possibility?

That really is true?

How and why do you draw that conclusion, Pinseeker?

Well, your brief statement has already given your answer to the first two questions, so we will move on.

The third question remains unchanged; please now give your answer.

Well I'm quite sure I have, but I will again. At any rate, if not, here it is again:

Annihilationism is not supported in any shape, form, or fashion anywhere in Scripture. This I've said many times before. The idea/belief that the Bible teaches annihilationism -- and really even the concept of annihilationism -- did not exist until the 19th century.

Now, let me get a little more technical, citing Scripture itself:

* In the Greek, the word rendered "eternal" in the New Testament is "aionios" and does not express any chronological notion. Rather, it means "belonging to the age to come," and all the New Testament writers are unanimous in expecting the age to come to be without end. And all will belong to the age to come in one way... or the other.

* There are certainly texts in the Bible which, taken in isolation, could be misconstrued to carry implications of annihilation, but others can’t naturally be fitted into any form of this scheme. At any rate, no proposed theory of the Bible’s meaning that doesn’t cover all the Bible’s relevant statements can be true. Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. After all, only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do.

* Nowhere in Scripture does death signify extinction; physical death is departure into another mode of being, called "sheol" or "hades," and metaphorical death is existence that is God-less and graceless; nothing in biblical usage warrants the idea that the “second death� of Revelation 2:11; 20:14; and 21:8 means or involves cessation of being. Moreover, Luke 16:22–24 shows that, as in a good deal of extra-biblical apocalyptic, fire signifies continued existence in pain. The chilling words of Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and of Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul explains, or extends, the meaning of “punished with everlasting [eternal, aionios] destruction� by adding “and shut out from the presence of the Lord� -- which, by affirming exclusion, rules out the idea that “destruction� meant extinction. Only those who exist can be excluded. It’s often been pointed out that in Greek the natural meaning of the destruction vocabulary (noun, olethros; verb, apollumi) is “wrecking,� so that what’s destroyed is henceforth nonfunctional rather than annihilated altogether.

What is it about "ceasing to exist" that makes it so anathema and so out of the question altogether?

It's not "anathema," it's just wrong. It's not supported by Scripture. At all.

What is included in the terms "made in His image, after His likeness" and what is excluded?

This is a very broad question, obviously. But just to address its implication concerning the subject being discussed here, God created man -- and all of creation -- for His own glory. And rather than extinguish any part of it, He will cause it to glorify Himself again as it once did (before the Fall). This is Christianity 101, Checkpoint.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 110 by PinSeeker]

Physical death and spiritual death are two very different things in the Bible.

You have the floor, Pinseeker.

Please go ahead, then, and spell out those differences you see, and tell us why it is so.

In answering this, I'll pose a question to you, Checkpoint. John Smith is as alive as you and me, but not a Christian as you and I are. Question: Is John, although living, breathing, walking, and talking -- alive -- spiritually alive or spiritually dead? Now, in answering this question, keep in mind Paul's statement to the Ephesian Christians:

"...you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses..." [Ephesians 2:1-5]

Paul also says, in speaking specifically about widows, but generally true of all people who are not Christians, "she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives" [I Timothy 5:6]

Quite obviously, Paul thought of physical death and spiritual death as two very different things. I would include Moses, David, Isaiah, John, Peter, James, and many other biblical authors, Old Testament and New, in this category.

Kindly also answer this:

"The wages of sin is death". Would you say that refers to physical death, spiritual death, or The Second Death?

Yes. I mean, I'm being a little facetious, but yes. Not that you really meant anything in particular by putting those in the order you did, but I would intentionally put them in this order (with some further expounding on each):

• 1. spiritual death -- as a result of Adam's and Eve's Fall, the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age, bequeathed to us by our first parents (Adam and Eve); we are already sinners from conception, just as David acknowledged of himself in Psalm 51:5
  
  2. physical death -- all are appointed to die this death, passing from this world to the age to come, eternity; this is also a result of Adam's and Eve's Fall
  
  3. Second Death -- many will experience this at the day of Christ, the Judgment, resulting in spiritual death extending into eternity -- the age to come); this is the inevitable consequence for those who fail in this life to repent of sin and believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior

Again, this is Christianity 101, really, Checkpoint.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Which of these numbered points do you reject, and why?

In the wooden ways that you make your "points," myth-one, I reject all of them. Now, if you meant them in the correct light -- and my last two posts to Checkpoint should help you with this -- I would not reject any of them.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 144 by PinSeeker]

In answering this, I'll pose a question to you, Checkpoint. John Smith is as alive as you and me, but not a Christian as you and I are. Question: Is John, although living, breathing, walking, and talking -- alive -- spiritually alive or spiritually dead?

John is physically alive but spiritually dead. Christianity 101!

Our differences raise their head when we look at what we think/God says happens beyond this present life, this present age.

Thanks Pinseeker, for answering my question; it was clear, and easy to follow.

More questions coming your way, probably!

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

• 1. spiritual death -- as a result of Adam's and Eve's Fall, the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age, bequeathed to us by our first parents (Adam and Eve); we are already sinners from conception, just as David acknowledged of himself in Psalm 51:5
  
  2. physical death -- all are appointed to die this death, passing from this world to the age to come, eternity; this is also a result of Adam's and Eve's Fall
  
  3. Second Death -- many will experience this at the day of Christ, the Judgment, resulting in spiritual death extending into eternity -- the age to come); this is the inevitable consequence for those who fail in this life to repent of sin and believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior

Again, this is Christianity 101, really.

You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally.

And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age.

So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.

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That's not very harsh.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 143 by PinSeeker]

Pinseeker wrote:

Quote:
God created man in Their image, in Their likeness (Genesis 1:26). This very fact eliminates the possibility of ceasing to exist (among other things). Since this is true,

Checkpoint wrote"

How and why do you draw that conclusion, Pinseeker?

Your answer was not what I had asked for, unfortunately, although perhaps it was in a way

My question stemmed from your assertain prefased on creation in the image and likeness of God, not on anything else.

Your answer seems to say your conclusion actually is derived from your reading of other scripture, from which you have deduced or assumed are inherent in the act and purpose of creation.


Checkpoint wrote:

What is included in the terms "made in His image, after His likeness" and what is excluded?

Pinseeker answered:

This is a very broad question, obviously. But just to address its implication concerning the subject being discussed here, God created man -- and all of creation -- for His own glory. And rather than extinguish any part of it, He will cause it to glorify Himself again as it once did (before the Fall). This is Christianity 101, Checkpoint.

You appear to be asserting that "all creation" was made "in His image, after His likeness". Which, seemingly, you equate to "for His own glory", somehow.

Our focus on this thread is "hell", with its many sinners continuing to "gnash their teeth" in rebellion for all eternity.

Lastly, to that you add this conclusion:

"He will cause it to glorify Himself again as it once did (before the Fall)".

Well, all I can say right now is, whatever you or I or anyone else makes of all that, you have not yet even begun to answer my specific question. Please do so!

Grace and peace be to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 147 by myth-one.com]

[b
3. Second Death -- many will experience this at the day of Christ, the Judgment, resulting in spiritual death extending into eternity -- the age to come); this is the inevitable consequence for those who fail in this life to repent of sin and believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior[/quote]


myth-one replied:

You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally.

And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age.

So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.

Presumably you do not agree this is Christianity 101.

How do you connect "spiritually dead" with what comes later to the spiritually dead, The Second Death?

[PinSeeker]

You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally. And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age. So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.

Yes, in a manner of speaking, but experientially it will be infinitely worse, because in this eternal state, the grace of God will be non-existent for them. "Simply continue"? It won't be "simple" at all. Far from it.

That's not very harsh.

Well not when you put it the way you just did. But the way you just put it is far, far, FAR too simple.