God's truth about hell

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Checkpoint
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God's truth about hell

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

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Post #161

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 151 by PinSeeker]
Regarding your question of "(W)hat is included in the terms 'made in His image, after His likeness' and what is excluded"...

We could probably go on and on for years about what all that entails, but in keeping it specifically relevant to what we are discussing, I would assert to you the following:

Part -- part -- of being made in the image of God, a reflection of Him, is our intrinsic eternality. Now, this eternality is surely not in the sense that we are, or ever will be, equal to God, of course. But we will exist forever -- in one state or the other -- just as He does. We cannot exist in eternity past, of course, as He did, because we were created by Him. But we will all exist in eternity future, as He will. The question for us, as His created (creatures), is not whether we will exist or not, but rather which state we will exist in. In other words, give that we will exist in eternity, will we exist:

But aside from that question, this intrinsic eternality is part of being made in His image, part of His glory reflected by us. You may not agree. If not, that's okay, but at least now you know how the two concepts are connected. I apologize for not spelling out that connection earlier, but to be honest, I consider this part of Christianity 101, too. Smile I just assumed you would immediately make that connection for yourself.
Thanks for this specifically relevant answer.

It confirms what I had thought about your position starting point.

Your answer is what you assert, and explains what you assume, as do many, is an integral part of Christianity 101.

Your starting point is Genesis 1:26-27, and so is what you derive from those verses, and that is your basis for reading what you consider to be relevant other passages.

As for those of us who have adopted a different view, our starting point is Genesis 2:7, and so is what we derive from that verse, and that is our basis for reading what we consider to be relevant other passages.

I would say that we could probably agree with the gist of what you say about image and His glory being reflected, but not to the way you applied them to our existence and our eternality.

So, we believe our reflection of Him is not "our eternality", but instead is "our potential eternality", which is conditional only rather than being a given, or intrinsic.

The Lord bless and keep you, Pinseeker.

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tam
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Post #162

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote:
tam wrote: Okay then. So we agree that eternal torment is not necessary to meet God's justice.
Sure, but eternal punishment is necessary.
You keep saying this, but the reason you gave is satisfied in cessation of existence. The reason you added after that (that God would be a murderer) is based on faulty reasoning, and is not true.

tam wrote: The punishment (the judgment) of death (cessation of existence) is permanent.
LOL! Cessation of existence, were it a reality, would be permanent, that's for sure.
Indeed. And it is that simple.

Cessation of existence is not what happens to the unrepentant. There is absolutely no Scriptural support for it.


There is plenty of scriptural support for it, as has been laid out on this thread and in other threads.

tam wrote: Life is a gift, eternal life is a gift. We are not owed eternal life. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life.
I agree with both of these things, of course.
Therefore, you agree that were God to execute judgment on someone, as the Judge (who is without sin and who CAN cast the first stone), He would not be a murderer.
tam wrote: God is not a sinner...
Of course not. Thank you for reiterating what I just said.
THEREFORE:
tam wrote: He is not a hypocrite if He sentences someone to death.
Agreed.



So there is no need for you to have suggested it to begin with.


At this point, both reasons you gave where conscious eternal punishment are required to meet God's justice have been shown to be a) unnecessary and b) based upon erroneous reasoning.


So I am still waiting for you to explain the reason that eternal (conscious) punishment is required to satisfy what you have said is God's perfect justice.

But your understanding of what death is -- both the first and the second -- is wrong. And that's the point.
It is not your understanding. That does not make it wrong.


tam wrote: Love expressed negatively would be hate, would it not?
Yes, but love expressed negatively is still love, Tam. Hate is not the opposite of love. Total disregard -- not caring -- is the opposite of love.
Hate (certainly in the English language) is the opposite of love. Caring is the opposite of not caring. Good is the opposite of bad. Sadness is the opposite of happiness.


“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven."

Christ is correcting the teaching 'hate your enemy' with the opposite: 'love your enemies'.




tam wrote:
But eternal unending punishment - wherein the people being punished can never be free of their torment - serves no purpose for that person.

This is only your opinion, and very much flawed at that.



Tell me then, what purpose does it serve for the person being punished?


tam wrote:
...even if they did learn from their punishment, that punishment will continue without end.

Absolutely correct.


What would be the purpose in continuing to punish someone who has learned from their punishment?

tam wrote:
And if they are incapable of learning from that punishment, then punishment serves no purpose.

Absolutely incorrect.


It's very easy to say 'correct' or 'incorrect'. Can you tell us what the purpose is of a punishment for a person who is incapable of learning from that punishment?


tam wrote:
God has much more wisdom than that.

Well, God has much more -- infinitely more -- wisdom than that of anyone (or everyone) of this world.


Agreed.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #163

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 154 by PinSeeker]
Hell magnifies for us the love of God by showing us how far God went, and how much He went through, to save us. And for those who spend eternity in hell -- unrepentant sinners -- even discipline and punishment, and even judgment are administered by God in love. In a very real way, even the anguish, regret, and profound sadness -- the torment -- endured by those who will spend eternity in hell is an indirect consequence of the unfailing love of God.
Oh?

Oh no.

Hell no!

The love of God reigns supreme, and your "truth about hell" does not reign supreme.

For the love of God had no need for, no intention of, saddling any unrepentant sinner with endless existence, as if it was to feature as any kind of result of God's love.

In God's world, mercy triumphs over judgment.

God is not merciless, but is merciful.

God knew what He was doing when He created mankind. He knew we would fail the test, and had already factored in a Savior and ransom.

That is why He did not make us to have endless existence, but instead made available to us conditional immortality. Those who fail to comply are not left with endless existence, but have their existence ended.

This is an expression of His love and mercy, and a reflection of His glory.

Grace and peace to all.

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Post #164

Post by myth-one.com »


Checkpoint wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:3. Second Death -- many will experience this at the day of Christ, the Judgment, resulting in spiritual death extending into eternity -- the age to come); this is the inevitable consequence for those who fail in this life to repent of sin and believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior
myth-one wrote:You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally.

And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age.

So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.
Presumably you do not agree this is Christianity 101.

How do you connect "spiritually dead" with what comes later to the spiritually dead, The Second Death?
There is a physical body and a spiritual body, and they are never mixed together.

Physical bodies are born of other flesh and bone physical bodies.

Spiritual bodies are born of the Spirit. God is the Father Spirit.

Physical bodies require physical feedback to survive in the physical world -- pain, hunger, thirst, sight, touch, love, lust, etc.

Severe denial of feedback will drive most physical bodies to commit sins. A starving person may steal food, for example. So mankind is designed with tendencies to sin.

Physical bodies will perish and spiritual bodies will live forever.

Death only applies to physical beings. And it applies to all physical beings.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

It is appointed to all mankind once to die.

But all mankind will be resurrected again to life.

Therefore, our first physical death is not truly a death as it is not permanent.

Consequently, our first "death" is often described in the scriptures as sleep, slumber, or rest.

Once a spiritual bodied being is born, it lives forever.

So there is no such "thing" as a dead spirit. For example, God cannot "kill" the devil because God created the devil as a spirit.

============================================

But the word spirit or its derivatives are often used in other connotations to confuse, mystify, mislead, and help seal the scriptures from our understanding.

One example of this is the use of the term "spiritual death."

Since spirits are immortal, there is no such thing as the death of a spiritual body.

The definition of spiritual death is generally given as being the "total separation from the presence of God."

But God is everywhere, so once again this is quickly determined to be a foolish contradiction.

===========================================

The real question is why was the term "spiritual death" ever created.

Man fears the unknown. One obvious fear is death. Death cannot be tried out on a test basis. You are either dead or alive.

We see dead bodies and know we will end up likewise. The part we do not understand is our personalities, our thinking processes, our emotions, our non-physical processes. These are the processes which many believe separates us from the other animals. We even give it a name, calling it our "soul" or "spirit" and assigning to each soul or spirit eternal life.

So we allay our fear of death by denying it -- claiming that we live forever.

Thus we are the perfect victim for the lie of Satan that "Ye shall not surely die."

=========================================

So in fact, there is no such thing as being "spiritually dead."

I suppose that one can come in and out of Christianity -- by gaining or losing faith.

So "spiritually alive" or "spiritually dead" might be used in that context.

But these terms are totally unnecessary otherwise.

Since spirits live forever, there is no such thing as a dead spirit.

Since spirits live forever, there is no reason to ever specify that they are alive.

================================================

The "Second Death" is the physical death of nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire.

It happens quickly and is everlasting.

Actually, this is their first and only death as their "first" death was not death at all, because it was not permanent.

There is no connection of "spiritually dead" to the second death.

The dead are dead to everything -- knowing and having awareness of absolutely nothing.

=============================================

Nice to meet you, Checkpoint! O:)

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Post #165

Post by earl »

myth-one.com,
Not to interfere with your conversation ,but you stated,"Since spirits live forever".
Can you clarify the second death?Are you only indicating man in your context?
Is the second death only for man or angels and spirits such as Satan,Lucifer ,etc also?
Jesus stated that the prince of this world is judged.Jo.12.31.Does this prince also perish, extinction after their judgement?

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Post #166

Post by myth-one.com »


earl wrote: myth-one.com,
Not to interfere with your conversation ,but you stated,"Since spirits live forever".
Can you clarify the second death?Are you only indicating man in your context?
Is the second death only for man or angels and spirits such as Satan,Lucifer ,etc also?
Jesus stated that the prince of this world is judged.Jo.12.31.Does this prince also perish, extinction after their judgement?
Welcome to the discussion Earl.

Death only applies to physical world beings; man and the other animals, plants, trees, fish, insects, germs, etc.

God and the angels are immortal spiritual world beings and death does not apply to them.

The devil (also known as Lucifer, the serpent, or prince of this world) will be judged and condemned to everlasting torment in the lake of fire:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
The fire and brimstone are not for him, but are there to kill humans which shall be cast into hell and quickly suffer their "second" death.

It is the devil who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the mythical souls of nonbelievers! This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.

Angels who rebelled under the command of the devil are imprisoned now while awaiting the judgment. Their sentences will be determined and be less than eternity.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
All men are appointed to die only the first death. The second death is optional based on whether or not one chooses to accept Jesus as his Savior.

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Post #167

Post by earl »

myth-one.com,
Is the lake of fire on Earth or somewhere else?
Reason for asking is Scientists have researched for the location of Sodom and believed they have found it because of a natural event,a meteorite exploding above the Dead sea.
This is an interesting article (s) and there are some Biblical verses not found in the article that supports a lake of fire.
If this is viewed as an unlikely connection then from where did Bible authors come up with a lake of fire to be used as a torture method?Rev.20-10 lake of fire and burning sulfur.
Sulfur is on our element chart which means the lake of fire would have to be a physical location and not guessing it is a spiritual ,non physical location.

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Post #168

Post by myth-one.com »

earl wrote: myth-one.com,
Is the lake of fire on Earth or somewhere else?
Reason for asking is Scientists have researched for the location of Sodom and believed they have found it because of a natural event,a meteorite exploding above the Dead sea.
This is an interesting article (s) and there are some Biblical verses not found in the article that supports a lake of fire.
If this is viewed as an unlikely connection then from where did Bible authors come up with a lake of fire to be used as a torture method?Rev.20-10 lake of fire and burning sulfur.
Sulfur is on our element chart which means the lake of fire would have to be a physical location and not guessing it is a spiritual ,non physical location.
I have no idea where the lake of fire is.

Being eternal, it would require some significant or replenishing source of fuel. So I would guess it is somewhere else.

The authors were inspired by God:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (II Timothy 3:16)
Why do you claim that the lake of fire is a torture device.

Granted it is a place of everlasting torment for the devil -- but not torture:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
But it is simply the quick method of execution as applied to humans who are cast into it.
Last edited by myth-one.com on Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #169

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: God is not merciless, but is merciful.
I agree. That's why He annihilates no one. Not any part of His creation. That's just it... your God's -- and Tam's and myth-one's, and that of several others here -- mercy is far, far too small.
Checkpoint wrote: God knew what He was doing when He created mankind. He knew we would fail the test, and had already factored in a Savior and ransom.
This I agree with, of course.
Checkpoint wrote: That is why He did not make us to have endless existence, but instead made available to us conditional immortality. Those who fail to comply are not left with endless existence, but have their existence ended.
Nope. Not according to Scripture. Those who "fail to comply" -- fail to repent and believe and therefore remain in rebellion are placed under eternal judgment... by Jesus at the Judgment. And there they remain, for eternity.
Checkpoint wrote: This is an expression of His love and mercy, and a reflection of His glory.
Well, that's exactly what I say about my position (and Scripture in general). Herein lies the problem, actually. Your position (and that of Tam, myth-one, and several others here) makes God's love and mercy (among other things and his majesty and glory out to be far, far too small. I fully believe this is unintentional and inadvertent, but that is indeed the case.

I am sorry that we disagree, but it need not break our fellowship. Grace and peace to you and all.

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Post #170

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:Those who "fail to comply" -- fail to repent and believe and therefore remain in rebellion are placed under eternal judgment... by Jesus at the Judgment. And there they remain, for eternity.
Judgment: a decision of a court or judge.

No judgment is everlasting by definition. All judgments result in finite decisions.

You are confusing judgment with the decision and sentencing.

Granting everyone's free will choice of accepting or rejecting everlasting life is God's expression of love and mercy.

He will honor everyone's individual choice because He is just and true:
Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

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