Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

[Tcg]

.
Some accuse atheists of not understanding the Bible given that they acknowledge that the Bible contains contradictions.

An example of a contradiction is included in the story of the demons cast into a herd of 2,000 pigs. Both gospel Mark (5:2) and gospel Luke (8:27) state that Jesus met "a man." The gospel Matthew (8:28) claims that Jesus met "two demon-possessed men."

Matthew clearly contradicts both Mark and Luke. Some may argue that this isn't a contradiction because neither Mark or Luke state Jesus met one and only one man. They may explain that Jesus in fact met two men, but that Mark and Luke only mentioned one of them.

I suppose we could stretch this further and claim that there were actually four demon possessed men. Matthew mentioned two of them, Mark mentioned one, and Luke mentioned the last. We could of course push it further and claim there were 98 demon possessed men and the gospel authors only mentioned four of them.

None of these are reasonable explanations. It is clear that Matthew's count contradicts both Mark and Luke's.

Is it only atheists who acknowledge Bible contradictions like the one above?

Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions whether or not it includes the one mentioned above?


Tcg

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 58 by 1213]

Yes, some passages support the notion of forgiveness via the shedding of blood. Others, contract that notion. By pointing to the ones that do, you have not refuted the one's that don't.

Such as The Lord's Prayer, the Beattitudes, The Parables, John's baptizing base on "repentance for the forgiveness of sins", Micah 6.6-8. etc, etc.

All it takes is one anti blood sacrifice verse to contradict Hebrew's sweeping statement "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins." The unknown author of Hebrews is contradicted by the Prophets, including John and Jesus himself.

And that is a MAJOR theological and thematic contradiction, not simply a contradiction of inconsequential minutia.

Another one? Paul teaches that the Law is a curse for those who attempt to abide by it, of find salvation in it. The Tanakh, especially the Psalms cite the Law as the way to life and blessing, something to be embraced and celebrated.

Face it, the Bible contains some major contradictions. Does that invalidate the Bible as a good source of Spiritual inspiration and guidance? I don't see that it has to, do you?

[Difflugia]

Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts. 1:18

Acts dont tell the reason for death was the fall. It only tells Judas fell, not that it killed Judas.

Acts doesnt tell judas bought the field. It tells Judas obtained it. Judas got the field, because the priests brought it with his money.

Nobody would read the passage as meaning the Judas's already dead body fell unless they were straining at a harmonization, so nobody would write with that intention and expect to be understood. Since everything else Luke wrote seems to be pretty intelligible, there's just no way that Luke's statement here meant anything other than that Judas bought a field and was killed by being spontaneously disembowelled in it.

From The Acts of the Apostles: A Shorter Commentary by C. K. Barrett, p. 12 (emphasis in original):

Luke writes a brief but vivid account of the end of Judas. Judas (not, as in Mt, the chief priests) purchased (not simply acquired) a property; the word suggests an estate or farm. It represents the Aramaic word transliterated in the first two syllables of Aceldama. He bought it with the reward of his unrighteous act (rather than his unrighteous reward). He fell flat on his face; literally, he became prone. Neither ancient nor modern attempts to harmonize this with Mt. (he hanged himself and fell; he jumped (in suicide) or fell (by accident) from a roof) are convincing. For his death; cf. 2 Kdms 20.10 and Josephus, War 7.453.

It became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem that in their language that field was called 'Akeldama,' that is, 'The field of blood.'
Acts 1:19

Acts doesnt really say the reason was something else. It tells about what happened to Judas (got the blood money, by which he obtained the field) and thus the reason can be the same as in Matthew.

The clauses aren't independent. Even without conjuctions, there's again no way that Luke intended the series of events to be unrelated, but in this case it's explcit; each clause is connected to the previous one with a conjunction, usually "and" (), but in the case of the reason for the name, it's "therefore" () showing that Luke intended a causal relationship; the field was so named because the people learned of this event:

Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his iniquity and falling headlong, he burst in the middle and all his intestines gushed out; and it became known to all that lived in Jerusalem, therefore the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.

So, sorry, I think you failed.

Of course you do.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 57 by 1213]

Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts. 1:18

Acts dont tell the reason for death was the fall. It only tells Judas fell, not that it killed Judas.

Are you suggesting that Judas just tucked all his intestines back into his abdomen and then went and hanged himself? This Bible story is rapidly turning into a comedy sketch.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 50 by 1213]

It is possible that Judas hang himself and the rope was cut and he fell.

Why would both accounts differ so radically if they are describing the same event?

Because witnesses see things differently, they notice different things and dont see same things as necessary as others may see. If you would go and ask from people who witnesses car accident, what did they see, you would not get the exact same message. And interesting thing is actually that, if the messages would be the exact same, people would say, yes, the others copied the message, which is why it is not true. It seems to me that it doesnt really matter what is said, if people dont want to believe.

Witnesses might differ in recounting some of the details but hardly when it comes to the major aspects of the event. There is too much that is not common to the two accounts to have them refer to the same event. Changing the details to prevent people from concluding that one was copied is feeble at best. That should not even occur to a person recounting a very significant event like the death of Judas.

[Zzyzx]

.

Why would both accounts differ so radically if they are describing the same event?

Because witnesses see things differently, they notice different things and dont see same things as necessary as others may see.

WHO, exactly, are the witnesses present to know personally what occurred and where are their reports?

If you would go and ask from people who witnesses car accident, what did they see, you would not get the exact same message. And interesting thing is actually that, if the messages would be the exact same, people would say, yes, the others copied the message, which is why it is not true.

Did gospel writers (whoever they may have been) ever copy from one another or from a common source?

When extensive passages in a text are word-for-word identical or nearly so, is that an indication that copying was involved?

It seems to me that it doesnt really matter what is said, if people dont want to believe.

Likewise, it seems as though some people are desperate to believe tales in their favorite religious book " and will make up all sorts of excuses to 'explain' and/or deny defects.

[Abdelrahman]

Face it, the Bible contains some major contradictions. Does that invalidate the Bible as a good source of Spiritual inspiration and guidance? I don't see that it has to, do you?

Reflect on this verse from the Qur'an my brother:

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

As Muslims, we believe in the Gospel sent with Jesus (pbuh) but the modern day Bible is not an accurate copy of the Gospel. Jesus (pbuh) came with one book not a collection of books.

This is why contradicting verses exist, amidst inspirational verses which could have been from the original Gospel. You may ask does it invalidate the Bible as a source of guidance? Well partly. I have nothing against the verses that preach good behavior and the beautiful concepts in Christianity... we share the same values and concepts in Islam. You are our brothers.

However, what if theological concepts are being developed about God to make sense of the contradicting verses within the Bible. The concept of the trinity, as we are all well aware, was man-made at the council of Nicaea. Such a concept would not have been born if the Bible did not contradict itself. This has resulted in man degrading God to the animal act of begetting and changing the concept of God. If there is contradiction due to interpolation, then why are we still quoting it as entirely God's word?

My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

This is absolutely beautiful. I'm shook as to how you have arrived at such a conclusion all on your own. This is essentially the creed of Islam. This is what Muslims believe. Pure monotheism. Simple repentance. Keep the commandments.

If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him." - [Exodus 22:25]

Who interestingly does not consume usury (interest) today as well? Muslims.

"And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you." - [Leviticus 11:7-8]

Who does not eat swine? Jews and Muslims.

"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." - [Matthew 26:39]

Who prays by putting their faces on the ground? Muslims. We imitate Jesus (pbuh) more than the Christians do themselves because we love him.

The 'good parts' of the Bible may very well be from the original Gospel, however, the existence of the 'bad parts' makes you question the 'good parts' and theological doctrines as well, am I wrong?

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

"Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." - The Holy Qur'an [3:84]

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." - The Holy Qur'an [4:171-172]

The children of Israel received many prophets. When Moses (pbuh) came with the message, many followed him, many did not. The he died and the children of Israel diverted from his message, even during his lifetime building idols at one point. Jesus (pbuh) was then sent to the same nation, the children of Israel. Just like Moses (pbuh) calling to pure monotheism and woship of One Lord. However, Jews do not believe in Jesus (pbuh). They reject him as a liar and false messiah. Yet he came with miracles and called to the One Lord. He did not call to demonic acts so he was not devil inspired. He cured the blind and lepure and called to charity, prayer and the worship of One God. After Jesus (pbuh) was made to appear as if he was killed (Muslims believe he was taken up unto God and will return at the end of times), people diverted again. With early Christians having different beliefs about Jesus (pbuh). Some claiming he was only a prophet, others claiming he was the son and others God Himself. The council of Nicaea sought to solve these conflicting issues and the concept of the trinity was born, hundreds of years after Jesus (pbuh). This is why Jesus (pbuh) is said to have said in the Bible:

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come" - [John 16:12-13]

The Spirit of Truth is the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent as a final prophet to mankind. Just like Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh). Why is it so hard to believe that God could have sent another Prophet to mankind? Christianity is divided. Who's right? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelicals? Mormons? Jehovahs? All of you have differing doctrines. Major differences. This is why another Prophet was sent, this time unto all of mankind through the other progeny of Abraham, not the Children of Israel, but unto the Arabs, the children of Ishmael.

He shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, a Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. [The Acts 3:20-22]

Heaven will receive Jesus (pbuh) - what Muslims believe - and another Prophet (pbuh) shall be raised up from your brethren. Who are the brethren of the Jews? The Arabs! The Jewish people decend from Isaac and the Arabs from Ishmael.

We are told in the Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is foretold of in the Torah and the Gospel.

"If a prophet speaks in the name of the Eternal but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Eternal has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." - [18:22, NRSV]

I can show you many many examples of prophecies made by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that were spoken in the name of the Eternal, that have come to pass. Fulfilling the requirement above that the Prophet is dictating from the Eternal.

We Muslims call onto the One Lord, the Most Merciful Lord of the Heavens and Earth. We bear testimony to that which was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) a great Prophet of God, and to Moses (pbuh), to Abraham (pbuh), Noah (pbuh), David (pbuh), Lot (pbuh) and many many more ending with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and we make no differentiation between any of them and they are all equal. Let me know what you think brother!

[Clownboat]

Face it, the Bible contains some major contradictions. Does that invalidate the Bible as a good source of Spiritual inspiration and guidance? I don't see that it has to, do you?

Reflect on this verse from the Qur'an my brother:

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

As Muslims, we believe in the Gospel sent with Jesus (pbuh) but the modern day Bible is not an accurate copy of the Gospel. Jesus (pbuh) came with one book not a collection of books.

This is why contradicting verses exist, amidst inspirational verses which could have been from the original Gospel. You may ask does it invalidate the Bible as a source of guidance? Well partly. I have nothing against the verses that preach good behavior and the beautiful concepts in Christianity... we share the same values and concepts in Islam. You are our brothers.

However, what if theological concepts are being developed about God to make sense of the contradicting verses within the Bible. The concept of the trinity, as we are all well aware, was man-made at the council of Nicaea. Such a concept would not have been born if the Bible did not contradict itself. This has resulted in man degrading God to the animal act of begetting and changing the concept of God. If there is contradiction due to interpolation, then why are we still quoting it as entirely God's word?

My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

This is absolutely beautiful. I'm shook as to how you have arrived at such a conclusion all on your own. This is essentially the creed of Islam. This is what Muslims believe. Pure monotheism. Simple repentance. Keep the commandments.

If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him." - [Exodus 22:25]

Who interestingly does not consume usury (interest) today as well? Muslims.

"And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you." - [Leviticus 11:7-8]

Who does not eat swine? Jews and Muslims.

"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." - [Matthew 26:39]

Who prays by putting their faces on the ground? Muslims. We imitate Jesus (pbuh) more than the Christians do themselves because we love him.

The 'good parts' of the Bible may very well be from the original Gospel, however, the existence of the 'bad parts' makes you question the 'good parts' and theological doctrines as well, am I wrong?

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

"Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." - The Holy Qur'an [3:84]

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." - The Holy Qur'an [4:171-172]

The children of Israel received many prophets. When Moses (pbuh) came with the message, many followed him, many did not. The he died and the children of Israel diverted from his message, even during his lifetime building idols at one point. Jesus (pbuh) was then sent to the same nation, the children of Israel. Just like Moses (pbuh) calling to pure monotheism and woship of One Lord. However, Jews do not believe in Jesus (pbuh). They reject him as a liar and false messiah. Yet he came with miracles and called to the One Lord. He did not call to demonic acts so he was not devil inspired. He cured the blind and lepure and called to charity, prayer and the worship of One God. After Jesus (pbuh) was made to appear as if he was killed (Muslims believe he was taken up unto God and will return at the end of times), people diverted again. With early Christians having different beliefs about Jesus (pbuh). Some claiming he was only a prophet, others claiming he was the son and others God Himself. The council of Nicaea sought to solve these conflicting issues and the concept of the trinity was born, hundreds of years after Jesus (pbuh). This is why Jesus (pbuh) is said to have said in the Bible:

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come" - [John 16:12-13]

The Spirit of Truth is the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent as a final prophet to mankind. Just like Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh). Why is it so hard to believe that God could have sent another Prophet to mankind? Christianity is divided. Who's right? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelicals? Mormons? Jehovahs? All of you have differing doctrines. Major differences. This is why another Prophet was sent, this time unto all of mankind through the other progeny of Abraham, not the Children of Israel, but unto the Arabs, the children of Ishmael.

He shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, a Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. [The Acts 3:20-22]

Heaven will receive Jesus (pbuh) - what Muslims believe - and another Prophet (pbuh) shall be raised up from your brethren. Who are the brethren of the Jews? The Arabs! The Jewish people decend from Isaac and the Arabs from Ishmael.

We are told in the Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is foretold of in the Torah and the Gospel.

"If a prophet speaks in the name of the Eternal but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Eternal has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." - [18:22, NRSV]

I can show you many many examples of prophecies made by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that were spoken in the name of the Eternal, that have come to pass. Fulfilling the requirement above that the Prophet is dictating from the Eternal.

We Muslims call onto the One Lord, the Most Merciful Lord of the Heavens and Earth. We bear testimony to that which was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) a great Prophet of God, and to Moses (pbuh), to Abraham (pbuh), Noah (pbuh), David (pbuh), Lot (pbuh) and many many more ending with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and we make no differentiation between any of them and they are all equal. Let me know what you think brother!

Only when Christians and Muslims stop telling their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to a heaven, yet hates the other so much as to send them to a hell, will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed.

You are proud of your holy book and you think it special. Just like every other religious person out there. Therefore, you being impressed with the book looses its luster for the rest of us. (Doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong of course, but they are not unique).

What are your thoughts on the indoctrination that Muslims and Christians do to their children when it comes to heaven and hell and how it produces division and violence in this world?

Should only Muslims tell their children such things, or should Christians as well? Would the world be better off if all religions taught such a concept? Would the world be less divisive and violent if we abondoned teaching out children such things?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide forever. (Quran 33:64)

Then [the unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:46

[1213]

Are you suggesting he recovered from his body bursting open and all his intestines gushing out?

No. I am suggesting that he was already dead, because of the hanging, when he fell.

[1213]

Yes, some passages support the notion of forgiveness via the shedding of blood. Others, contract that notion. By pointing to the ones that do, you have not refuted the one's that don't.
.
All it takes is one anti blood sacrifice verse to contradict Hebrew's sweeping statement "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins." The unknown author of Hebrews is contradicted by the Prophets, including John and Jesus himself

Sorry, I think you just have not understood what Paul says. He is not saying that forgiveness is not possible without blood. He is telling that when the blood covenant was done, it was done by shedding of blood and in that covenant, there was no remission without blood. It does not mean God could not forgive without blood.

"This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." Moreover he sprinkled the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry in like manner with the blood. According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
Heb. 9:20-22

If Paul would be saying that God cannot forgive without physical blood, then he would be wrong.

Paul teaches that the Law is a curse for those who attempt to abide by it, of find salvation in it. The Tanakh, especially the Psalms cite the Law as the way to life and blessing, something to be embraced and celebrated

If you mean this:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who doesn't continue in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Gal. 3:10

Old Testament tells that person who does against the law is cursed.

Cursed be the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abomination to Yahweh, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret. All the people shall answer and say, Amen.
Deu. 27:15-

Because I think Paul is speaking that person who des not obey the law is cursed and it is written in the OT so, I think he is not wrong or contradictory. Paul is not against the law, because he says:

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

Pauls teaching is that no one is saved by doing the works. The law doesnt save anyone, but it can bring a curse for those who dont obey it and so person is under the curse, there is threat of curse, if you dont obey the law.

Face it, the Bible contains some major contradictions. Does that invalidate the Bible as a good source of Spiritual inspiration and guidance? I don't see that it has to, do you?

Sorry, you have made contradictory interpretation, but not shown contradiction in the Bible.

I think Bible is written by men and so it would not be a miracle, if it would have mistake or contradiction. But, as long as no one can show any contradiction, I have no reason to accept the claim that it has.

[1213]

Nobody would read the passage as meaning the Judas's already dead body fell unless they were straining at a harmonization, so nobody would write with that intention and expect to be understood.

I think you are wrong, because I just did it. Also, I dont see any reason to believe you in this. Sorry.