Real debate of the evidence for resurrection

[Zzyzx]

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From a current thread:

Testimonials are worth nothing in debate.

Which is why there is so little real debate in any of these forums...opinions abide.

Let's really debate the presence or absence of verifiable evidence that Jesus died and came back to life -- excluding testimonials and opinions.

[SallyF]

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From a current thread:

Testimonials are worth nothing in debate.

Which is why there is so little real debate in any of these forums...opinions abide.

Let's really debate the presence or absence of verifiable evidence that Jesus died and came back to life.

There is not a hint of a shred outside the posthumous propaganda written by a person or persons unknown.


Yes, it's a one line response …


But it only takes one line to point out the total absence of any sort of evidence outside the propaganda.

[Zzyzx]

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Perhaps the 'REAL debaters' favoring the reanimation tale will set forth their evidence.

Previous debates have cited:

1. Unverifiable tales of an empty tomb (with or without 'angels')
2. Assumptions that and empty tomb indicates the deceased came back to life and left
3. Unverified tales written decades later that claim associates saw the deceased alive post mortem
4. Assertions that 'many believed' (argumentum ad populum)
5. Religion promotional literature claiming the event occurred.
6. Emotional appeals to 'believe so you can go to heaven after you die'

Is there anything more substantial? Anything that can be verified as true and accurate?

Supporters, kindly step forward and present your case.

[bluegreenearth]

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From a current thread:

Testimonials are worth nothing in debate.

Which is why there is so little real debate in any of these forums...opinions abide.

Let's really debate the presence or absence of verifiable evidence that Jesus died and came back to life -- excluding testimonials and opinions.

This thread is begging for a contribution from RealWorldJack. Anybody observe any posts from him recently? Despite having been thoroughly frustrated by his incoherent reasoning process, I hope he is feeling well.

[Zzyzx]

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This thread is begging for a contribution from RealWorldJack. Anybody observe any posts from him recently? Despite having been thoroughly frustrated by his incoherent reasoning process, I hope he is feeling well.

RWJ last log-in was February 15 (checked on 'Memberlist' above, enter name, see profile).

Miss seeing his posts

[bluegreenearth]

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This thread is begging for a contribution from RealWorldJack. Anybody observe any posts from him recently? Despite having been thoroughly frustrated by his incoherent reasoning process, I hope he is feeling well.

RWJ last log-in was February 15 (checked on 'Memberlist' above, enter name, see profile).

Miss seeing his posts

We are arguably gluttons for punishment.

[Divine Insight]

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Previous debates have cited:

1. Unverifiable tales of an empty tomb (with or without 'angels')

Even if there was an empty tomb, perhaps Jesus never actually died?

2. Assumptions that and empty tomb indicates the deceased came back to life and left

Exactly. Perhaps he was never placed in the tomb precisely because he never actually died.

3. Unverified tales written decades later that claim associates saw the deceased alive post mortem

There would be nothing unusual about people seeing a person alive who had never actually died. In fact, the Gospel rumors have Jesus still wounded after his resurrection. What kind of a God would raise someone from the dead and not bother to restore their physical body to pristine health?

I would have been far more impressed seeing a Jesus who had been miraculously cured of all wounds than a Jesus who simply looks like he survived a horrible ordeal and still retained all his wounds and scars.

4. Assertions that 'many believed' (argumentum ad populum)

If Jesus actually survived then it shouldn't be surprising that a lot of people believed the stories of Jesus having been seen again, since those stories would indeed have been true.

5. Religion promotional literature claiming the event occurred.

Like I say. Why would a God who wants to impress people with his magical powers not restore Jesus to pristine health? That fact alone makes me question the entire thing.

6. Emotional appeals to 'believe so you can go to heaven after you die'

I need to be convinced that something has a strong likelihood of being true before I fall for that kind of religious propaganda. Besides, if there is an afterlife why should I think that Jesus would be such a jerk to deny me that afterlife. This religion is the epitome of arrogance to think that their God would only care about believers. What kind of a jerk to they think God is?

Is there anything more substantial? Anything that can be verified as true and accurate?

Supporters, kindly step forward and present your case.

I've given this religion every chance possible for over 50 years. Moreover no one could be more excited to believe in a loving just God who has eternal life to offer us. Yet that doesn't help this theology. Wanting to believe it doesn't make it credible.

By the way, as far as I can see, the Gospel rumors actually have Jesus proclaiming that it's not important to believe in him or in his words. See John 12:47-48. So the Christians are misrepresenting what the Gospels even have to say anyway.

Jesus also tells us how we can merit our own salvation, see Luke 6:37. He tells us that if we don't condemn others we won't be condemned. Since I don't condemn others according to Jesus I won't be condemned. So why are Christians so hot-to-trot to make a liar and a monster out of Jesus?

According to Jesus I'm already going to heaven even without believing in Christianity.

As far as I can see, Christians are the ones who have made Jesus into an ignorant hateful monster. Even if he was real I seriously doubt that he is was hateful as Christians seem to wish he was. The Gospel rumors about him certainly don't back up mainstream Christendom. As far as I can see, Christians seem to think that Jesus is a seriously sick egotistical pig. I have no clue why they think he's such a jerk. The Gospel rumors don't even back that up.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Why would a God who wants to impress people with his magical powers not restore Jesus to pristine health? That fact alone makes me question the entire thing.

He campaigned diligently for about 3 years before dying, but in the 40 days after resurrecting he failed to take any advantage of his unique status and essentially did nothing.

[Willum]

The best evidence against a resurrection is it is simply impossible.

Not all the power in the universe can resurrect a body three days dead.
There is no mechanism, no power, no concept that allows it to be possible, with the exception of the puerile "but God can do anything."

There are many things God can not do, write a reasonable creation story, for one.
Resurrection is just a demonstrable scientific based one.

It is probably just a metaphor, like the snake and apple, turning to salt, and so on.

[SallyF]

The best evidence against a resurrection is it is simply impossible.

Not all the power in the universe can resurrect a body three days dead.
There is no mechanism, no power, no concept that allows it to be possible, with the exception of the puerile "but God can do anything."

There are many things God can not do, write a reasonable creation story, for one.
Resurrection is just a demonstrable scientific based one.

It is probably just a metaphor, like the snake and apple, turning to salt, and so on.

Probably a metaphor indeed.

Christians will call all manner of biblical stuff they DON'T like "metaphors".

It's perfectly reasonable then to propose that the "back from the dead" notion is just figurative.

The word "dead" is used figuratively in "scripture" to refer to someone who is excommunicated.

The figurative meaning of "back from the dead" then becomes quite obvious.

There can often be rational, mundane explanations for the magic stuff many Christians are tossing over the sides of their belief balloons anyway.


(OMG … I didn't use a picture )