Is the Eucharist only symbolic.

[polonius]

" Paschasius Radbertus was the first to formulate the doctrine of transubstantiation in the ninth century. He was opposed by Ratranmus, a contemporary monk at the monastery of Corbie. Ratranmus wrote: "The bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ in a figurative sense" (De corpore et sanguine Christi). This controversy between two Catholic monks shows that both views were present in the Catholic church at least up to the eleventh century. The debate continued until the thirteenth century when the final decision was taken by the Lateran Council in 1215.

The Doctor of the Church, Duns Scotus, admits that transubstantiation was not an article of faith before that the thirteenth century"

[Zzyzx]

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How is your warning encouraging?

It demonstrates a Christian attitude toward those who do not worship their favorite 'god' -- and demonstrates a feeling of superiority by virtue of god / bible worship.

[MarysSon]

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Well, maybe you'll get lucky and you'll be here when that happens at the end ]of time

No thanks. I am not given to delusion or superstition. Threats and promises don't impress me unless they can be shown to be other than imagination and wishful thinking.

I didn't issue a threat OR a promise.
Just an observation . . .

[MarysSon]

Is this recommendation for sunscreen general advice or is this specifically for Zzyzx? If it is specifically for Zzyzx, why is this advice directed to him?

1 Thessalonians 4:18 states:

• Therefore encourage one another with these words.

How is your warning encouraging?

Tcg

It's general advice to ALL doubters.

You can only encourage people about the end times if they WANT to to be encouraged.

[Zzyzx]

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Well, maybe you'll get lucky and you'll be here when that happens at the end ]of time

No thanks. I am not given to delusion or superstition. Threats and promises don't impress me unless they can be shown to be other than imagination and wishful thinking.

I didn't issue a threat OR a promise.
Just an observation . . .

Of course, of course -- just a good Christian attitude. No smugness intended . . .

Is this recommendation for sunscreen general advice or is this specifically for Zzyzx?

If it is specifically for Zzyzx, why is this advice directed to him?

It's general advice to ALL doubters.

What does sunscreen have to do with doubting and/or 'end times'?

You can only encourage people about the end times if they WANT to to be encouraged.

Does a condescending attitude constitute 'encouraging'?

I encourage the self-righteous to display their attitudes for readers to consider.

[Eloi]

[Replying to MarysSon]

And again you are watching God related aspects in reverse ...

I just said: when Jesus Christ instructed about that symbolism, and instituted the celebration, he was still very much alive.

... and you said: Are you saying that God can't turn bread and wine into His Body and Blood?? What other limits do you place on God??

The point here and now is other: how many imaginary things are you going to attribute to God on the pretext that he can do everything?

[MarysSon]

What does sunscreen have to do with doubting and/or 'end times'?

You can only encourage people about the end times if they WANT to to be encouraged.

Does a condescending attitude constitute 'encouraging'?

I encourage the self-righteous to display their attitudes for readers to consider.

NOT sure how concern for an unbeliever makes one "self-righteous" - but only a truly self-righteous person would make such a claim . . .

[Zzyzx]

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What does sunscreen have to do with doubting and/or 'end times'?

You can only encourage people about the end times if they WANT to to be encouraged.

Does a condescending attitude constitute 'encouraging'?

I encourage the self-righteous to display their attitudes for readers to consider.

NOT sure how concern for an unbeliever makes one "self-righteous" - but only a truly self-righteous person would make such a claim . . .

“Concern for an unbeliever�? Really?

Well, maybe you'll get lucky and you'll be here when that happens at the end of time (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Wear some REALLY strong sunscreen. I recommend SFP 12 million . . .

What you said in post #106 was an honest and sincere expression of 'concern'?

Are you sure that it was not a smug and flippant remark – now being masqueraded as 'concern'?

Example of Christianity in action?

Thanks

[polonius]

[Replying to post 102 by MarysSon]

MS, it seems to me that you forgot that when Jesus Christ instructed about that symbolism, and instituted the celebration, he was still very much alive.

What does that have to do with it??
Are you saying that God can't turn bread and wine into His Body and Blood??

What other limits do you place on God??

RESPONSE: Do not both Jesus' words of institution as well a Paul's state that the Eucharist is a remembrance service?

When did the real presence in the Eucharist become a church teaching? Ans. 4th Lateran Council c. 1215

What did the early Church Fathers teach about the nature of the Eucharist? Start with St. Augustine.

St. Augustine, “On Christian Instruction� (ca. AD 410), 3, 16, 24:
If a preceptive statement [in the Scriptures] forbids either vice or crime, or commands what is either useful or beneficial, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to command vice or crime, or forbid what is either useful or beneficial, it is figurative. “Unless,� He says, “you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.� It seems to command crime or vice; therefore it is a figure prescribing that there be communication in the Lord’s passion and a grateful and salutary treasured remembrance that His flesh was crucified and wounded for us.

[MarysSon]

What you said in post #106 was an honest and sincere expression of 'concern'?

Are you sure that it was not a smug and flippant remark – now being masqueraded as 'concern'?

Example of Christianity in action?

Thanks

Sure - I'm concerned for ALL of you who deny Christ.
According to Scripture, your future looks mighty BLEAK . . .

[Zzyzx]

.

Sure - I'm concerned for ALL of you who deny Christ.
According to Scripture, your future looks mighty BLEAK . . .

As a resident of the infamous Bible Belt, I am surrounded by people who claim to have special knowledge by virtue of believing tales about one of the thousands of 'gods' depicted in ancient legends, folklore, and/or religion-promoting literature.

They seem convinced that their favored ancient writers and religion promoters actually knew about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities – and that they wrote absolute truth accurately. Here in debate similar attitudes prevail.

Being confident in their opinion, true-believers often convey an attitude of smug superiority derived from their choice of worship practices and perhaps rituals. Unfortunately, their assumed 'wisdom' only applies to a proposed 'afterlife' (which like 'gods' cannot be shown to be anything more than products of human imagination and wishful thinking).

In the real world, believers are indistinguishable (except if calling attention by dress or ornamentation). They are incarcerated at average rates, divorce at average rates, and have half a million abortions annually in the US (while preaching the opposite).

Perhaps 'concern' should be directed toward those who pretend to be special or 'chosen' but cannot demonstrate 'specialness' except in opinion and imagination.


Back to the OP: A biologist can determine whether the wafer and wine are, in fact, meat and blood. All else is conjecture, opinion, symbolism, fantasy (or whatever).