God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 358 by myth-one.com]


Checkpoint wrote:

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image" specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.

Thanks for quoting that.

A fact that our opposition simply brushes over or ignores.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 356 by PinSeeker]


Pinseeker wrote:

Quote:
Surely we can leave it there and part in peace.

Checkpoint replied:

I wish. Surely, yes, but not yet!

Pinseeker responded:

Well sure, because you can't let it go. Wow.

You too, Pinseeker. Well demonstrated on this thread.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image" specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.

Thanks for quoting that.

A fact that our opposition simply brushes over or ignores.

No one in your "opposition"... wow... "brushes over" or "ignores" anything, Checkpoint. The irony of what you say here is absolutely astounding. Rather, what advocates of the non-biblical notion of annihiliationism ignore and/or brush over is the following:

Through Scripture as a whole, what God tells us (through the prophets and apostles) and shows us (in the Person of Jesus) Who He plainly and clearly is. What can be known about God is plain to us, because God has shown it to us. His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived (Paul, in Romans 1).

It most assuredly follows, then, that we know what it is -- although in our finite minds we cannot fully grasp the infinite -- to be created in the image of God. Some are ignorant of or deny at least bits and pieces of that (all of it, in the case of unbelievers). But pointedly to this conversation, part of being created in God's image is -- again, most assuredly -- that we will all exist into eternity future. And to that end, where and in what state and with Whom (and whom else) are the only questions left.

If you want to call me "opposition" or group me with people you consider such, that's your prerogative, too.

• PinSeeker wrote: Surely we can leave it there and part in peace.
  • Checkpoint replied: I wish. Surely, yes, but not yet!
    • PinSeeker responded: Well sure, because you can't let it go. Wow.

You too, Pinseeker. Well demonstrated on this thread.

I'm not going to let you keep misrepresenting what I have said, Checkpoint. Of note to me here is that you seem to be the only poster I have conversed with that seems to be intent on doing that. Be that as it may, but as long as you continue to do that, I will continue to respond in kind. You can certainly quit at any time, but it seems you can't do that. So, on any notion of demonstrating not being able to let it go, it might do you well to look in the mirror.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[myth-one.com]

But pointedly to this conversation, part of being created in God's image is -- again, most assuredly -- that we will all exist into eternity future.

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 361 by PinSeeker]

Thanks for a helpful response to my post.

Helpful in that it somewhat clarifies where each of us stand, and why we do, on this contentious issue, 'The truth about hell".

Checkpoint wrote:

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image" specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.


Thanks for quoting that.

A fact that our opposition simply brushes over or ignores.

Pinseeker responded:

No one in your "opposition"... wow... "brushes over" or "ignores" anything, Checkpoint. The irony of what you say here is absolutely astounding. Rather, what advocates of the non-biblical notion of annihiliationism ignore and/or brush over is the following:

Through Scripture as a whole, what God tells us (through the prophets and apostles) and shows us (in the Person of Jesus) Who He plainly and clearly is. What can be known about God is plain to us, because God has shown it to us. His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived (Paul, in Romans 1).

It most assuredly follows, then, that we know what it is -- although in our finite minds we cannot fully grasp the infinite -- to be created in the image of God. Some are ignorant of or deny at least bits and pieces of that (all of it, in the case of unbelievers). But pointedly to this conversation, part of being created in God's image is -- again, most assuredly -- that we will all exist into eternity future. And to that end, where and in what state and with Whom (and whom else) are the only questions left.

The truth is, Pinseeker, we both "brush off and ignore", effectively, what the other considers to be definitive, and plainly and clearly stated in the Bible.

This is part of the discussion process, in which we advocate our position, and sometimes do misrepresent some things the other has posted.

Neither of us intend to do so, we are simply posting how we see the two viewpoints. It would do us both well to look in the mirror.

Can you at least agree on that?

Grace and peace to you and yours, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

We've discussed your misuse and misapplication of these texts in arguing your point at length, myth-one. Especially Ecclesiastes 9:5. No need to do so again here. There is absolutely no inference to or implication of cessation of existence of anyone in any of these verses or elsewhere in the Bible. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for a helpful response to my post. Helpful in that it somewhat clarifies where each of us stand, and why we do, on this contentious issue, 'The truth about hell".

<chuckle> Our positions, Checkpoint, have been quite clear for a long time... from the outset, really.

The truth is, Pinseeker, we both "brush off and ignore", effectively, what the other considers to be definitive, and plainly and clearly stated in the Bible. This is part of the discussion process, in which we advocate our position, and sometimes do misrepresent some things the other has posted.

As I said, I brush off and/or ignore nothing. Brushing off or ignoring anything anybody says in a conversation has no part in a real discussion. It's arrogant and rude, among other things.

If you had merely advocated your position, there never would have been any issue.

I have never misrepresented your position. To do so would have been dishonesty, which also has no place in any good discussion.

There have been times where I've played out the implications of your position, but misrepresent it I have not.

Neither of us intend to do so, we are simply posting how we see the two viewpoints. It would do us both well to look in the mirror. Can you at least agree on that?

For the reasons above, no, absolutely not. But we can leave it at that and part on good terms. We can agree to disagree, which sounds very familiar to me, because I've suggested it a number of times.

Grace and peace to you and yours, Pinseeker.

And grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[tam]

draft...

[tam]

Peace to you,


There is no reason to think that Ecclesiastes 9:5 is talking about believers and unbelievers. Ecclesiastes is talking about people who are alive (physically alive) and people who have died (physically died), and that all share the same destinty: to die and join the dead.


The context shows this:

"This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope"even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!"

The same destiny overtakes all (all die and join the dead).

This is self-evident.

(side note: this was before Christ of course, because anyone in Christ who is alive when He returns will not die at all)

"5
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since perished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun."


Even their love, their hate, their jealousy have perished. Because, once dead, they know nothing.




"7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun"all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."


If the rest of it didn't make it clear, this last bit should. Because here he is speaking of God approving what they do, and yet, they are ALL still going to the realm of the dead. And in that realm, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

We've discussed your misuse and misapplication of these texts in arguing your point at length, myth-one. Especially Ecclesiastes 9:5. No need to do so again here. There is absolutely no inference to or implication of cessation of existence of anyone in any of these verses or elsewhere in the Bible. Grace and peace to you.

Actually, I did not contribute or add a single letter to Posting #362.

I simple quoted you and some scriptures that were inspired by God.

If you do not accept those scriptures as quoted, you need to negotiate your interpretations of them with God.

But here is what God inspired to be written about "private interpretations":

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.