Orthodoxy claims God revealed himself to Adam and Eve, and a host of prophets since, including Jesus and Paul. Except for the LDS church, and some scattered believers, most do not believe there is ongoing divine revelation, or at least no recent scripture directly from God.
Many of the great 'saints' have remarked on the silence of God. We know there are many forces and fields in the universe we cannot detect with our basic senses, but we can detect them with instruments.
But we have discovered no force or field or radiation that suggests God exists.
The affirmative of this debate topic is that if God exists, we should be able to detect that existence; since we cannot, there is no God.
Frequently we hear the claim that 'God chooses not to reveal himself' or 'He already has, you just need to read scripture and listen to Jesus in your heart.'
This raises the related question, 'why would God not reveal himself for 2000 years?'
Why does God Hide from us?
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Thomas123
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Post #2
This raises the related question, 'why would God not reveal himself for 2000 years?'
I think this is a great question?
The God trail appears to be getting colder. I personally believe that God is unchanging. It is hard to say that theists ,etc haven't been looking, when you consider the proliferation of religous genres , that have sprouted up in the last 2000 years.
The obvious answer is that we are moving away from God and as we do so our manifestations of religous direction, have become more and more absurd.
We need to go back to where he was last sighted. The Jesus figure of the Gospels, whoever he was is the last credible God interpretation, in my view. Personally speaking, the Judaic prophet, that is the man Jesus, appeared to speak with reason and knowledge about how to connect with Yahweh through human worship.
I think this is a great question?
The God trail appears to be getting colder. I personally believe that God is unchanging. It is hard to say that theists ,etc haven't been looking, when you consider the proliferation of religous genres , that have sprouted up in the last 2000 years.
The obvious answer is that we are moving away from God and as we do so our manifestations of religous direction, have become more and more absurd.
We need to go back to where he was last sighted. The Jesus figure of the Gospels, whoever he was is the last credible God interpretation, in my view. Personally speaking, the Judaic prophet, that is the man Jesus, appeared to speak with reason and knowledge about how to connect with Yahweh through human worship.
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Danmark
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Post #3
[Replying to post 2 by Thomas Mc Donald]
In the Christian tradition I was raised in, God is a spirit with whom there are no boundaries. He is not bound by time or place. If God is a creative spirit who built the entire universe and our little planet, then there is no more reason to find God in church than in a grove of redwoods. The Middle East is no more likely a place for god to show himself, than Fresno, CA, or Surrey, England or British Columbia.
God should be everywhere, in everything, in our 'hearts.' But he is silent. It is hardly definitive, but it suggests he is not here at all. He does not exist.
The geographic and temporal limitations suggest the 'God phenomenon' is man made and like man is not free of time and place, but 'he' is a mere HUMAN tradition.
In the Christian tradition I was raised in, God is a spirit with whom there are no boundaries. He is not bound by time or place. If God is a creative spirit who built the entire universe and our little planet, then there is no more reason to find God in church than in a grove of redwoods. The Middle East is no more likely a place for god to show himself, than Fresno, CA, or Surrey, England or British Columbia.
God should be everywhere, in everything, in our 'hearts.' But he is silent. It is hardly definitive, but it suggests he is not here at all. He does not exist.
The geographic and temporal limitations suggest the 'God phenomenon' is man made and like man is not free of time and place, but 'he' is a mere HUMAN tradition.
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Tcg
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Post #4
We have much more recent sightings of prophets:Thomas Mc Donald wrote:
We need to go back to where he was last sighted. The Jesus figure of the Gospels, whoever he was is the last credible God interpretation, in my view. Personally speaking, the Judaic prophet, that is the man Jesus, appeared to speak with reason and knowledge about how to connect with Yahweh through human worship.
- Modern Prophets and Continuing Revelation
Along with modern prophets comes continuing revelation and additional scripture. Joseph Smith is perhaps best known for his translation of the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ and for laying the foundation of the Church in the 19th century. Successive presidents of the Church since then have made their own distinctive contributions.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... revelation
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Post #6
Pre-earth in the Spirit world:
GOD hid HIMself from us pre-earth when we were trying to make up our minds to believe HIM or to reject HIM as a liar. To show us HIS divinity, HIS power and glory would have coerced all of us to accept HE was our GOD, overriding our free will. Once we chose by our free will and separated all of creation into those who accepted HIM as GOD who were chosen to be HIS heavenly bride (the elect) even though some later sinned (the sinful elect) and the eternally sinful who rejected HIM as a liar and a false god.
GOD reveals HIMself:
Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of GOD shouted for joy? tells us that at the creation of the physical universe there were people who witnessed that creation and sang HIS praise and shouted their joy!!!
Then in the context of this verse about the creation of the physical universe, we read Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men WHO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH BY THEIR WICKEDNESS. 19 FOR WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. 20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM THE THINGS THAT WERE MADE (ie created, at the creation) 21 For although THEY KNEW GOD, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.
Verse 21 and 25 They EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen. tells us that sinners who know the truth suppress it because they love sinfulness more.
The purpose of housing all sinners together in the earth was for the sinul elect to see the truth about the suffering sin causes and to seek repentance, redemption and repudiating their loving idolatry of the reprobate.
So not only would further self revelation NOT do the world any good, it just might cause them to reevaluate their strategy and stop their evil to make it harder for the sinful elect to reject them and turn to GOD themselves.
GOD hid HIMself from us pre-earth when we were trying to make up our minds to believe HIM or to reject HIM as a liar. To show us HIS divinity, HIS power and glory would have coerced all of us to accept HE was our GOD, overriding our free will. Once we chose by our free will and separated all of creation into those who accepted HIM as GOD who were chosen to be HIS heavenly bride (the elect) even though some later sinned (the sinful elect) and the eternally sinful who rejected HIM as a liar and a false god.
GOD reveals HIMself:
Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of GOD shouted for joy? tells us that at the creation of the physical universe there were people who witnessed that creation and sang HIS praise and shouted their joy!!!
Then in the context of this verse about the creation of the physical universe, we read Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men WHO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH BY THEIR WICKEDNESS. 19 FOR WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. 20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM THE THINGS THAT WERE MADE (ie created, at the creation) 21 For although THEY KNEW GOD, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.
Verse 21 and 25 They EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen. tells us that sinners who know the truth suppress it because they love sinfulness more.
The purpose of housing all sinners together in the earth was for the sinul elect to see the truth about the suffering sin causes and to seek repentance, redemption and repudiating their loving idolatry of the reprobate.
So not only would further self revelation NOT do the world any good, it just might cause them to reevaluate their strategy and stop their evil to make it harder for the sinful elect to reject them and turn to GOD themselves.
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Danmark
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Post #7
[Replying to post 6 by Charles]
I'm sorry, but I cannot credit your arguments.
1. If God revealed himself once, he must have had a good reason. Correct?
2. God, being omniscient, realizes that now, 2000 years later man has 'wised up.' Like those who built the Tower of Babel, we have gotten 'too smart' to believe in what we now consider 'ancient myths, fairy tales, and superstition.
3. Since God wanted his message revealed and has good reason to know it is no longer deemed authentic or authoritative by billions of people today, why not give us a refresher revelation?
I'm sorry, but I cannot credit your arguments.
1. If God revealed himself once, he must have had a good reason. Correct?
2. God, being omniscient, realizes that now, 2000 years later man has 'wised up.' Like those who built the Tower of Babel, we have gotten 'too smart' to believe in what we now consider 'ancient myths, fairy tales, and superstition.
3. Since God wanted his message revealed and has good reason to know it is no longer deemed authentic or authoritative by billions of people today, why not give us a refresher revelation?
When was God last sighted
Post #8Thomas Mc Donald wrote:
RESPONSE: The Jesus figure of the Gospels was last sighted before his execution (30-33 AD) The Gospels were written by non-witness story-tellers between 70 and 95 AD.We need to go back to where he was last sighted. The Jesus figure of the Gospels, whoever he was is the last credible God interpretation, in my view. Personally speaking, the Judaic prophet, that is the man Jesus, appeared to speak with reason and knowledge about how to connect with Yahweh through human worship.
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brunumb
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Post #9
[Replying to post 6 by Charles]
Not really. There is nothing to stop us from deciding that all this macho power and glory stuff is just from a deity on an ego trip. On the other hand, if he really is our God then I guess he is entitled to have us accept him. At least by being up front with us he gives us the opportunity to make an informed decision. As it is, when God is embedded in far fetched stories that our poor human brains can't find real, we are encouraged to simply toss that aside and believe on faith. Pfft!To show us HIS divinity, HIS power and glory would have coerced all of us to accept HE was our GOD, overriding our free will.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Post #10
From the OP,
"why would God not reveal himself for 2000 years?"
This goes back to another recent post ,"Show me a sign"
In what manner of a sign would one be satisfied ?
From the other post the attraction of such event showed significant interest.
However it seems from the wording in the replies ,to believe it will happen ,is zero.
There is one encrypted message in the Bible that points to a physical object,which non theists would prefer to have interest in,rather than in spiritual things.
This physical object is called a white stone and has writing in it.It is considered the hidden manna or unrevealed .
It is found at Rev.2.17
I have read many comments on the web with peoples interpretations but have discarded them .
Is it possible that this writing is the "reveal "but in a non flamboyant manner of "on going divine revelation"?,Since there will be no sign given in contrast to so many Biblical embellishments and where the learned and unlearned are on equal footing to receive it?
"why would God not reveal himself for 2000 years?"
This goes back to another recent post ,"Show me a sign"
In what manner of a sign would one be satisfied ?
From the other post the attraction of such event showed significant interest.
However it seems from the wording in the replies ,to believe it will happen ,is zero.
There is one encrypted message in the Bible that points to a physical object,which non theists would prefer to have interest in,rather than in spiritual things.
This physical object is called a white stone and has writing in it.It is considered the hidden manna or unrevealed .
It is found at Rev.2.17
I have read many comments on the web with peoples interpretations but have discarded them .
Is it possible that this writing is the "reveal "but in a non flamboyant manner of "on going divine revelation"?,Since there will be no sign given in contrast to so many Biblical embellishments and where the learned and unlearned are on equal footing to receive it?
