Who said Jesus was God?

[marco]

Many folk think that the man from Nazareth who panicked before his execution was God. The stuff happened 2000 years ago and time seems to add truth. If somebody stepped from a bus and declared he was from God, or that he was in fact God, what would it take to move doubt into certainty? Would changing a glass of water into beer do the trick? If something is an absurdity NOW, why does it become a possibility in the past?

What convinces you Jesus is God .. or is not God?

If he's not God, what persuades you he is God's messenger?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


Some people think that when Thomas shouted: "O my God!" this means Jesus was Yahweh. Others read the nebulous opening to John's thesis - "Right at the start we had the word and it was with God, and in fact was God." I had to learn this in Latin, as a boy and the "apud deum" (with God or in the home of God) makes as much sense now as it did then. Very, very clever people who are immersed in the most difficult aspects of theology extract divine truth from "logos" . Some would say if such clever people tell us so, then it must be true.

By extension the Roman Church has declared that the wafer we eat in the middle of mass is God as well.

It seems we must pick and choose from absurdities. I think Jesus was very much a man, very much steeped in religion to the exclusion of all else.

[1213]

.. or is not God?

If he's not God, what persuades you he is God's messenger?

Bible convinces me that Jesus is the Messiah, son of God, but not the one and only true God, because Jesus tells that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And that is also confirmed by Paul:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

[marco]

.. or is not God?

If he's not God, what persuades you he is God's messenger?

Bible convinces me that Jesus is the Messiah, son of God, but not the one and only true God, because Jesus tells that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And that is also confirmed by Paul:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

I would have a similar interpretation that Jesus is not a deity, though I can understand that if he is the incarnation of God, then his human persona can accord honour to the Father since the point of incarnation would be for the humanised God to point people in heaven's direction. Complex theology but then so are miracles.

Where we might differ is that I see Jesus as a very religious individual. One wonders what a 12-year old did for three days on his own; where he slept and where he ate. Today it would be a police matter but in Luke it's just another pleasant tale.

We have hints in the gospels that literal is imaginary or figurative; when Jesus appeared on the road to Emmaus the two men had scales over their eyes so they did not recognise Jesus. That sounds suspicious.

The whole 2 year episode of a man, not recognised as a wonder worker by those of his town (a prophet goes unknown at home) wandering around talking to devils, saying "amen, amen " before being cryptic, and the far-fetched accounts Zachary, the Baptist's father, talking to an angel, his wife miraculously conceiving, then Mary talking to an angel and miraculously conceiving.... I think we have gone several bridges too fat into fantasy. Perhaps Jesus meant well - that's about all we can conclude.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by marco]

I don't think the claim of Jesus Divinity withstands reason, or Scripture for that matter. Yes, in John, Jesus seems to be claiming to be God. Other times in John he seems to claim the Father alone is God. (as in John 17.3). Even John is ambiguous..at best.

So can the notion "the Bible tells me so" stand if the Bible contains even one error, contradiction ambiguity or uncertainty? I doubt it.

And regarding the reasoning process applied to the claim, is the complexity of a matter (in this case Trinitarian theology) enough to establish the truth of the matter? Again, doubtful. At least not in and of itself.

SO we are left with Jesus claim. A) it is not clear he ever made the claim, even though we have the Bible, even there it is not clear. B) Jesus didn't leave us any writings. C) Even if he did, why should we believe him?

And so what we are really left with is the Church "tells me so". A Council of Ancients. Their interpretation, repeated though the ages and believed by billions. But does repetition of belief in and of itself establish the truth of a matter?

[marco]

And so what we are really left with is the Church "tells me so". A Council of Ancients. Their interpretation, repeated though the ages and believed by billions. But does repetition of belief in and of itself establish the truth of a matter?

Frequently people are impressed by "learned opinion". When is learned not so learned? The claim to divinity is so earth-shatteringly huge that it must be written in enormous capitals at the start and finish of any treatise. It is hardly sufficient to take a sentence and extract the possibility of godhead; worse is to take a mention of the Holy Ghost, possibly metaphorical inspiration, and make this concept co-equal with Yahweh.

Jesus emerges as a teacher, not a God. Whether he taught truth or ideas based on his clearly immense reading of Scripture we cannot know. To refresh my recollection I read through Luke this morning and from the start I felt I was reading an ancient superstitious zealot for whom angels flock around fields and vanish; miraculous births and holy prophets are there for the honest reporting; when something utterly unbelievable is mentioned the reaction is that people such as Mary hold it in their hearts.

Mary is promoted to philosopher poet in her declaration: "My soul doth magnify the Lord and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour. Because he has regarded the humility of his handmaid; " John the Baptist spent his valuable life in the desert, not working on medical research, but eating locusts. And for this insignificance it was necessary to trouble the busy Gabriel. A suitable adjunct might be that Theophilus laughed heartily after reading Luke's account. How does a God emerge from all this? I suppose we should be thankful a meek babe emerged from Bethlehem, not the horror of Yeats:

" And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? "

[mitty]

.. or is not God?

If he's not God, what persuades you he is God's messenger?

Bible convinces me that Jesus is the Messiah, son of God, but not the one and only true God, because Jesus tells that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And that is also confirmed by Paul:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Where does Jesus claim to be the Messiah, given he only claimed to be a prophet even though his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't believe him (Matt 13:55-58)? And the term "son of God" only means a true believer. Afterall David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7) even though he was an adulterous murderer who said that Jonathon's love was more wonderful than with any of his wives or concubines.

[marco]

Where does Jesus claim to be the Messiah, given he only claimed to be a prophet even though his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't believe him (Matt 13:55-58)?

If we can accept something from Matthew as true then it is odd that the family, who should have known about Gabriel's visit to Mary would not recognise him. And Jesus specifically says he's not recognised "at home."

(But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honour except in his own town and in his own home." And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.)

Perhaps - and it's a massive perhaps - the Christmas story of Bethlehem is just a fiction and the tales of several thousand singing angels are as fabricated as Matthew's myth about dead bodies putting on holy flesh and going shopping. And perhaps he tried no tricks at home because they knew he was a fake, not quite in touch with the real world. Jesus called himself a prophet - NOT God - but they knew otherwise.

It seems certain Christ was religiously freakish. What boy goes to church for three whole days and nastily rebukes his parents because they worried that he might have been abducted? If this is God, God help us!

[Thomas123]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing

This is bit like 'kicking a can up and down a road', marco.

You dont buy any of it and neither do I.

There is nothing new under the sun, and religions that need magic are considerably weakened by this dependence. It is like Disney for the American Age.

Religion should be about reality. The Yahweh God is about a people and their everyday struggles. Every night in the UK, people applaud the men and women of the NHS, as miracle workers for their bravery and their care. Even to touch a leper in the 1st Century , was a miraculous leap of Faith.
You didn't write this Disney ,marco, nor did you embellish it, or make people believe it. You just bring petrol to the barbecue, and waste your own time.
Imagine if you were picking through a dump and sorting out plastics for recycling. Wouldn't that be better than 'can kicking', which has always been an activity indicative of indolence. Looking forward to your post already.

Mark 1:40-45 King James Version (KJV)
40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

speaking of clean...
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/nowornever/the ... -1.5154273

[mitty]

Where does Jesus claim to be the Messiah, given he only claimed to be a prophet even though his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't believe him (Matt 13:55-58)?

If we can accept something from Matthew as true then it is odd that the family, who should have known about Gabriel's visit to Mary would not recognise him. And Jesus specifically says he's not recognised "at home."

But did the writers of Matthew discuss with Mary about a visit from Gabriel, or is that just an imaginative embellishment to their story like the rotting corpses that crawled out of their graves and wandered around down-town Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53).