God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 385 by myth-one.com]

OK so how do you respond to:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

punishment of eternal destruction = hell

This confirms that "eternal destruction" is the punishment. That is, everlasting true death -- the eternal absence of life. Thus, eternal destruction.

Being cast into the lake of fire results in this punishment. It is called the second death.

away from the presence of the Lord = God can take his being away from an area of reality.

Those who chose the second death are away from everything eternally in that they have no knowledge or consciousness of anything.

This is considering the view from those dying the second death. They are away from the presence of the Lord, their families, dogs, cats, rocks, etc, etc, etc . . ..everything

They have awareness of no ones presence -- knowing no thing ever again!

Now I am still thinking on all this but what I think we find is that God is present in hell executing his judgement and in hell, we experience God's wrath and he has removed his goodness.

Christians do not experience God's wrath upon Jesus' return.

They participate in the judgment process:

Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... (I Corinthians 6:3)

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 385 by myth-one.com]

OK so how do you respond to:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

punishment of eternal destruction = hell

away from the presence of the Lord = God can take his being away from an area of reality.

Now I am still thinking on all this but what I think we find is that God is present in hell executing his judgement and in hell, we experience God's wrath and he has removed his goodness.

But

Additional: Are you a pantheist?

I didn't know what that is -- so I looked it up -- and still don't totally understand it.

So no, I'm just a simple Christian -- without any other suffixes, prefixes, or adjectives.

Nothing of any special interest.

[PinSeeker]

Why don't we give consideration to the four questions I proposed to begin this thread? I am eager to read your answers, but in particular, the one to question 2. You may want to preface that with an answer to question 1, and that would be just fine with me.

Well, I thought I had, but okay.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

• To the extent we can know that it's a place devoid of God's grace and only of His wrath and judgment, that we don't want to be sent, and that we want to avoid at all costs, yes.

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

• That we understand -- or begin to, at least -- understand what we rightly deserve and what God has saved us from... how holy He is and how amazing His grace really is. And this should fill us with desire to worship and glorify Him. Among other things...

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

• This is basically what I meant by "hard truths," if you recall. As I said, many people react very strongly against what God says about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... Even believers shudder at it (or should, anyway). Unbelievers react against anything concerning God, even the idea of God itself; the idea of hell is just kind of "icing on the cake" for them. For believers, I don't think it's intentional, but many believers don't grasp the concept of God's justice, they don't grasp the concept of what His love really is. they really understand what it means that God is holy. That last one, His holiness, is worth focusing on and very relevant to this whole discussion. What does it mean to be holy, Checkpoint? And we know that God is making us as believers holy. What does that mean? I have my ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

• Um, I guess the answer to that is yes. But primarily God. Which is the sin of Adam in Eden, really:
  
  • "Wait, I don't think we will really die..."
  So now, here, it's either:
  
  • "Wait. I don't think there's any such thing as God, much less eternal judgment by Him..." (unbelievers)
  or:
  
  • "Wait, I don't think people will really be sent away to a place where they experience God's eternal judgment." (believers)
  The common thread in all these misguided responses is being wise in one's own eyes.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 387 by Wootah]

This is the problem, Wootah. He says:

• Those who chose the second death are away from everything eternally in that they have no knowledge or consciousness of anything.
  
  This is considering the view from those dying the second death. They are away from the presence of the Lord, their families, dogs, cats, rocks, etc, etc, etc . . ..everything
  
  They have awareness of no ones presence -- knowing no thing ever again!

It stems from a woefully incorrect understanding of Ecclesiastes, especially verse 5 of chapter 9. He makes it all about the second death rather than the first. And that comes out of a wrong-headed, preconceived narrative that he just will not let go of.

But hey. Give it the old college try...

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 387 by Wootah]

This is the problem, Wootah. He says:

• Those who chose the second death are away from everything eternally in that they have no knowledge or consciousness of anything.
  
  This is considering the view from those dying the second death. They are away from the presence of the Lord, their families, dogs, cats, rocks, etc, etc, etc . . ..everything
  
  They have awareness of no ones presence -- knowing no thing ever again!

It stems from a woefully incorrect understanding of Ecclesiastes, especially verse 5 of chapter 9. He makes it all about the second death rather than the first. And that comes out of a wrong-headed, preconceived narrative that he just will not let go of.

But hey. Give it the old college try...

Actually, there is only one true possible death -- the second death.

When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies.

Everyone person resting in their graves will be awakened at or after the Second Coming.

After judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will suffer the "second death." The second death is truly a death in that it is the total and permanent cessation of all their vital functions.

They are destroyed. Gone, gone, bye bye. Adios.

Having truly died, they will never live again.

On the other hand, believers never truly die. They are born as physical beings into the physical world, they rest in their graves awaiting their resurrection as immortal spiritual beings into the spiritual Kingdom of God.

And they all live happily ever after.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 387 by Wootah]

And he doesn't understand the fact that we all have spirits in our physical body, and that we are either spiritually dead (unbelievers) or spiritually reborn (believers). As you know (and he should, but doesn't seem to), Paul says:

• "it is no longer I who do (wrong), but sin that dwells within me... Who will deliver me from this body of death?" [Romans 7:17-24]

Paul is certainly not somehow saying something different and therefore contradicting himself -- as myth-one unintentionally asserts -- by saying the physical and spiritual are mutually exclusive. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

But the end result is that he very wrongly concludes that hell (the realm of the dead) is not a real place and that the second death is a complete cessation of existence.

Anyhoo.... again, give it the old college try.

[myth-one.com]

And he doesn't understand the fact that we all have spirits in our physical body, and that we are either spiritually dead (unbelievers) or spiritually reborn (believers).

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

What are flesh/spirit hybrids born of?

But the end result is that he very wrongly concludes that hell (the realm of the dead) is not a real place and that the second death is a complete cessation of existence.

Hell is a real place!

And the second death is a complete cessation of existence!

Flesh bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Humans are presently bearing the image of the earthy.

Believers shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly.

Your imaginary flesh/spiritual bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because they are tainted with flesh.

[PinSeeker]

What are flesh/spirit hybrids born of?

Actually, myth-one, I am a "flesh/spirit hybrid" (kind of a silly way to put it, but okay...) right now. Born of the Spirit. If you are indeed a heart-regenerate Christian -- and I don't really have reason to doubt you are -- then you are also.

Anyway, this is the "new man" that Paul continuously talks about putting on, while we are to put off the "old man," which is our sinful nature, which is what "in the flesh" means. Putting off the "old man" does not mean getting rid of our physical bodies (that's an utterly ridiculous thought), but rather battling -- battling, because it is a lifelong pursuit -- to rid ourselves of sin and everything CARNAL... of the flesh.

Hell is a real place! And the second death is a complete cessation of existence!

So hell will be empty for eternity? I mean, if it's empty, myth-one, then what's it's purpose, and why will God be there? Anyway, that's quite contrary to what Jesus says...

Flesh bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Bodies that are of the flesh, meaning still dead in sin -- not redeemed and glorified: That's what being of the flesh means, myth-one. So the dichotomy is of the spirit -- which can only happen BY the Holy Spirit -- or not. THIS is the distinction that Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 15 and through all his letters. The physical body, as in whether we have arms and legs or not, really has nothing to do with it. After the resurrection and the Judgment, we will once again be "flesh/spirit hybrids" --- LOL! -- because we will get our bodies back, and then, yeah, we'll "live happily ever after." LOL! I mean, it's true, but... LOL!!!

Believers shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly.

True, but this is a certainty for us believers, so we can live as though that's true right now.

Your imaginary flesh/spiritual bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because they are tainted with flesh.

LOL! See above. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

Is God in the chair you sit in?

[myth-one.com]

What are flesh/spirit hybrids born of?

Actually, myth-one, I am a "flesh/spirit hybrid" (kind of a silly way to put it, but okay...) right now. Born of the Spirit. If you are indeed a heart-regenerate Christian -- and I don't really have reason to doubt you are -- then you are also.

No human has yet been born again of the Spirit.

All Christians are presently heirs unto salvation:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we (Christians) are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

We will receive our inheritance of everlasting spiritual life when born again of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming.

Hell is a real place! And the second death is a complete cessation of existence!

So hell will be empty for eternity? I mean, if it's empty, myth-one, then what's it's purpose, and why will God be there? Anyway, that's quite contrary to what Jesus says...

The lake of fire associated with hell will be the eternal prison of the devil.

Why do you say God will be in hell?

Flesh bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Bodies that are of the flesh, meaning still dead in sin -- not redeemed and glorified: That's what being of the flesh means, myth-one.

No, bodies of the flesh are physical mortal bodies of the flesh.

You have a habit of wanting to interpret what God really meant to say.

After the resurrection and the Judgment, we will once again be "flesh/spirit hybrids" --- LOL! -- because we will get our bodies back, and then, yeah, we'll "live happily ever after." LOL! I mean, it's true, but... LOL!!!

For what possible purpose would a spiritual bodied being desire to also have a physical body?

That's utterly ridiculous!

Your imaginary flesh/spiritual bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because they are tainted with flesh.

LOL!

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Why do you laugh at the Words of your God??