Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew explicitly refers to the abomination spoken of by Daniel, who in both verses which mention an abomination associates it with cessation of sacrifice in the sanctuary/temple (9:27, 11:31).

Neither scripture in Daniel mentions the temple specifically. Jerusalem was the "holy city" becuase it was held the temple, and center of pure worship. Jesus invited readers to use discernment in identifying the meaning of Daniel which involves to being able to discern the subtlety behind the words rather than simply counting how many times the same word can be seen elsewhere in the bible and taking words it at at their most basic meaning. A child of three can see the word temple and point to a temple, biblical understanding involves more; Jesus said to be able to use discernment he didn't say just be able to count.

In any case, you are free to assume that is what is being referred to is the Romans literally inside the temple building but I see no reason to agree with you. Unless you are the Pope or are here declaring your interpretation as infallible, I think you are going to have to accept that not everyone agrees with your conclusions.





JW

[Thomas123]

Desperate needs require desperate measures.

Should America organize a coalition to invade Brazil. There is precedent for this type of action , in the oil rich Middle East. The biggest threat to our future quality of life is the deforestation of the Amazonian Rainforest. Brazil cannot be trusted with the protection of this vital world resource. Should we launch a Forest Storm offensive? Why not?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defores ... rainforest

"Brazil ranks 49.3 in the Gini coefficient index, with the richest 10% of Brazilians earning 42.7% of the nation's income, the poorest 34% earn less than 1.2%."

Is anyone else experiencing extreme drought at the moment. We have had next to zero rainfall in the last 30 days and the next 10 days we are set for no rain. Is it just an uncanny coincidence that this amazingly unusual weather pattern has coincided with the shut down of the worlds great carbon emitting factories , that are China, United States, Europe, India ,etc.
Tell me what is going on? What's your weather like?

[2timothy316]

Rest assured, I'll be watching. Of course I doubt I can devote centuries to that effort. Some sort of time frame would be helpful.

Here is the time frame we are given.

“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.�​—MATTHEW 25:13.

Like in Noah's day, there were two places people could be while 'keeping on the watch' for rain. From the Ark or from outside the Ark. There is no third option.

Also, would having a time frame help people open their eyes? Doubtful. Bible history shows that even when people did know the exact time of a prophecy, they still didn't believe it. So know the time, don't know the time, "For as people were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.� (Matt. 24:37-39)

Interesting term, 'they took no note'. Even though they could see a huge Ark was right in front of them and Noah preached that the flood was coming, they still did nothing about it. So this term 'took no note' basically means they did nothing about the information given to them. Much like a hurricane warning. There are those that don't heed those either and stay in the path of the hurricane. They know it's coming but they 'take no note'.

[Thomas123]

Mayor of New York today ( a likeable guy)

We have a new definition of good, good means not terrible!

He is now talking about controlling the beast.

He is ascending a mountain and he is now on a plateau, this plateau may still be ascending, but we are planning our descent.

This is what happens when you are ahead of the curve.

Mr. Trump said last week that he believed “people will be very happy to get a big, fat, beautiful check� with his name on it.???

Is there anything in Revelation for this speel.

[Clownboat]

I haven't read thru all the posts, so forgive me if this has been answered. By "last days" are you referring to those references in Matthew and elsewhere in the NT? Or are you including the Earth's last days from non supernatural forces.

Are we in Biblical end-times? I'm becoming more convinced of it. God cannot be mocked. We are all depraved and we cannot put off God's judgment forever. Just like the times of Noah, the hearts of people are evil and hardened, including those in the church. But, also like the times of Noah, forces will come and judge the nations.

I don't doubt how sincere you may believe that we are in some Biblical end times. I was convinced of the same thing just over 20 years ago.
It would be prudent to acknowledge how sincere previous end times predictors were though and acknowledge that sincerety is of no value when it comes to the claim being true or not. Especially when we are talking about predicting the future.

Predicting the end times is nothing new. Sincerely or not.
What you are doing is repeating history though. Some would suggest we should learn from it...

Here is a reference to some 174 end times predictions. I would assume all were sincere. Should you be added to the list?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... tic_events

[Clownboat]

Rest assured, I'll be watching. Of course I doubt I can devote centuries to that effort. Some sort of time frame would be helpful.

Here is the time frame we are given.

“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.�​—MATTHEW 25:13.

Like in Noah's day, there were two places people could be while 'keeping on the watch' for rain. From the Ark or from outside the Ark. There is no third option.

Also, would having a time frame help people open their eyes? Doubtful. Bible history shows that even when people did know the exact time of a prophecy, they still didn't believe it. So know the time, don't know the time, "For as people were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.� (Matt. 24:37-39)

Interesting term, 'they took no note'. Even though they could see a huge Ark was right in front of them and Noah preached that the flood was coming, they still did nothing about it. So this term 'took no note' basically means they did nothing about the information given to them. Much like a hurricane warning. There are those that don't heed those either and stay in the path of the hurricane. They know it's coming but they 'take no note'.

To discuss the Biblical flood tale here would be to give it attention that it doesn't deserve. It has been debated here many times in the past.

What I'm getting at is:
Imagine how impressed you would be if someone was trying to make a point, and was making a flat earth argument to support it. I doubt you would be impressed.

Bringing up that the earth is flat here would be off topic and to discuss such a thing would be to give it credit it doesn't deserve. Much like discussing that a real global flood happened as told in oral traditions of desert nomads that didn't have written language later penned and eventually included in a book of writings called the Bible.

As to your first point, you are correct. The Bible claims that the we cannot know the day or the hour. Doesn't stop such predictions though, so it seem irrelevant that the Bible says such a thing.

[Danmark]

I haven't read thru all the posts, so forgive me if this has been answered. By "last days" are you referring to those references in Matthew and elsewhere in the NT? Or are you including the Earth's last days from non supernatural forces.

I'm mostly arguing from a non-religious perspective, but with carryover into a religious perspective.

From a secular perspective, we are definitely in the last days in the world as we know it. Globally, we are entering economic, societal, and political collapse. Looking at our dashboard, all the gauges and dials are spinning like crazy and the signs are off the charts. Just yesterday, crude oil hit negative $37.63 a barrel. What in the world does that mean? The central banks have all gone ballistic with their money printing with a current annualized rate of $23 trillion into the global economy. We have catastrophic job losses around the world, yet we have record high Nasdaq. Governments all across the world have transitioned into authoritarian regimes. Governments are on the pretense of "helping the working class" while in reality siphoning all the money to their friends and supporters. Meanwhile, millions of jobless people are out of money and food while the rich are getting bailed out with a kickback of $1.6 million each.

Is this all just the run-of-the-mill events that have occurred before in history? We are at a scale and magnitude of a global collapse that is unseen in the history of the world. So, comparisons to how we've had unfulfilled doomsday predictions from the past are not relevant. I guess it's possible we could get through this and go humming along as before after our V-shaped recovery. But, I highly doubt it.

This is excellent analysis. I agree with the points you've made and most of your conclusions.
We seem to be at a point I have not seen in my lifetime, where there is world wide nationalistic fervor not seen since the last half of the 20th Century. But I think (hope?) we have reached the far swing of the continuum. The pendulum will swing back.

The current U.S. president is as responsible for promotion of nationalism as anyone and is singularly responsible for the U.S. abdicating its role as world leader. This pandemic should teach us at least one thing, that we are a global community. SARS-CoV-2 provides a very effective argument against nationalism; that we are one world and must cooperate.

I remain optimistic. Part of that optimism rests on the fact the prediction of 'end times,' both secular and sacred, have been made constantly in human history, and so far all such predictions have been proved wrong. I like the odds. But we certainly will have upheavals and tumultuous times.

I predict we will have a great and healthy return to relative normalcy, starting January, 2021

[Tcg]

Rest assured, I'll be watching. Of course I doubt I can devote centuries to that effort. Some sort of time frame would be helpful.

Here is the time frame we are given.

“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.�​—MATTHEW 25:13.

Like in Noah's day, there were two places people could be while 'keeping on the watch' for rain. From the Ark or from outside the Ark. There is no third option.

Also, would having a time frame help people open their eyes? Doubtful. Bible history shows that even when people did know the exact time of a prophecy, they still didn't believe it. So know the time, don't know the time, "For as people were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.� (Matt. 24:37-39)

Interesting term, 'they took no note'. Even though they could see a huge Ark was right in front of them and Noah preached that the flood was coming, they still did nothing about it. So this term 'took no note' basically means they did nothing about the information given to them. Much like a hurricane warning. There are those that don't heed those either and stay in the path of the hurricane. They know it's coming but they 'take no note'.

My question was related to this quote from you:

If you don't believe the Bible is accurate so be it and we if this site is still available to me and I am still alive I will come back to this very post and prove not my words but the Bible's words.

In what kind of timeframe do you expect to start documenting events you claim will prove the Bible's words?

Earlier you seemed convinced this would begin very soon. Did I misunderstand you?


Tcg

[Danmark]

Rest assured, I'll be watching. Of course I doubt I can devote centuries to that effort. Some sort of time frame would be helpful.

Here is the time frame we are given.

“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.�​—MATTHEW 25:13.

Always of interest is watching Bible people decide to take some verses literally and others, not at all. There are several references to Jesus himself declaring he'd be back before some 'standing here' die, and within a generation. Since he's late by 2000 years, actually reading what he said is OUT. He said he'd be right back. He didn't do it. Therefore NT prophesy is worthless. When you can do the gymnastics to make black white, 40 years 2000+, you make guidance from the Bible worthless, since you can make it say whatever you want.

[Diagoras]

With the recent policies of the Federal Reserve and the Federal Government, free market capitalism is now dead. We are now in a period where the government is in absolute control and the masses are dependent on handouts from the government.

Apologies for the delay in responding. I'd not forgotten.

Rumours of the death of capitalism are somewhat overrated, I feel. Equally, there's an argument to be had that the (US) government is not in control: states overruling the federal government regarding medical supplies for instance.

As much as the president or his party would like to be contrary, America is a socialist country.

Only from a purist, "if any welfare program exists, then it's a socialist country" viewpoint. America is far less 'socialist' than many European countries.

In the US, the Federal Reserve has gone all-in with their money injection into the financial system.

I share your concern that governmental fiscal policies around the world are causing a huge strain on economies. However, I don't see any evidence that the actions being taken are in some way predictive of 'end days'. We all got through the Global Financial Crisis. Not to minimise the effects and very real pain felt on an individual basis, but economies have a good track record of recovery.

In Hungary, PM Viktor Orban has seized authoritative power over the state.

Well, that's one current example. He's the kind of dictator that would take advantage of a crisis to do that. I'm not aware of others, but even if there were, again - it's no evidence of 'the end days', as strongmen have seized power ever since, well, you could argue Cain and Abel at a pinch. When Hitler seized power and ultimately started World War 2, I bet many people saw this as 'the end days', but the world prevailed. Seems like we have far less chance of another world war starting now, so why would this Hungarian matter?

In the US, the governments dictates who can go outside, who can go to church, who can open their businesses. Of course, the government says these are all necessary to flatten the curve. But, then you get can arrested for violating sheltor-in-place orders? This has gone too far.

Where I live (New Zealand), we have a further week (making five in total) of 'full lockdown' before partially relaxing the restrictions. The country's statistics for infections, deaths and recoveries speak for themselves: only five cases reported yesterday in a country of nearly five million. Our lockdown has been much more severe than yours, but I strongly reject your assertion that such measures 'go too far'. As a country, we're actually pretty close in population and land area to Oregon. You might like to research how that state compares to New Zealand for death tolls and then decide whether New Zealand went 'too far' to keep their death toll to 13.

Note, I said on the path to starvation.

India is on national lockdown. The poor there was living hand-to-mouth before coronavirus. Now, they are quarantined in their homes (many without homes) with no source of income. Unless the government can feed everyone, it's obvious they will go hungry.

I'm struggling to think why a government would keep severe restrictions in place long enough to allow a huge number of people to starve. Defeats the purpose (keeping people safe) of the initial lockdown. I don't expect to read of millions of starving people.

The world has been getting "better" by borrowing from the future. Yes, we can all live the good life now when we max out on our credit cards, but eventually someone will have to pay.

I surmise that you're narrowly focussed on the topic of 'debt', rather than things like the percentage of girls around the world who now receive at least primary level education, or of the percentage of 1-year olds that get vaccinated. The link I supplied deals with the reality that nearly every country in the world that was 'dirt poor' forty years ago has since improved their people's living conditions quite remarkably.

Perhaps if your position has been 'living in the last days of an American-influenced world', then you may yet be proved correct (give it another ten years to be sure), but an apocalyptic scenario that ends the whole of humankind? No way.