"It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

"It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

To borrow a phrase from Thomas Mc Donald, "It got a bit blown up in the telling".

Thomas was referring to the episode where someone was struck down dead for touching the Ark of the Covenant. The tale indicates that the person meant well, and was trying to steady the cart, but was killed anyway.

Thomas indicated that the reality behind the event was probably a freak, workplace accident where the cart fell on him and killed him. But it "got a bit blown up in the telling".

I'm thinkin that many of the Bible tales have a core reality behind them, but also "got a bit blown up in the telling".

It's easy to be dismissive of the tales considering the unlikely nature of them (if taken literally). And in the words of Thomas Paine, the Bible sometimes does it's cause no justice. Paine put it this way: (to paraphrase from memory) "The Bible has produced nothing but atheists and fanatics".

For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?

And conversely, are Fundamentalists erring too, when they accept the tales literally, as written. Are they also disregarding the very human propensity to "blow things up in the telling"?

(Thank you Thomas, both Thomases ;))
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #11

Post by Elijah John »

marco wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?

If tales of miracles have a simple rational explanation behind them then there is nothing to be sceptical about. If Lot's wife's tragic dissolution was really an explanation of a hill that looked like a pillar of salt; if Jesus just waded in and Peter stumbled to meet him, and was caught by the Lord; if the apostles simply went up a mountain with Jesus and that was the extent of the ascension - then all is well but Jesus has left the building. There is noting to build altars and cathedrals over.
Sure there is. Why not altars and cathedrals devoted to the Divine Father? God? We both agree that Jesus is not God, so....Perhaps the historical (read "real") Jesus would have wanted it that way, and would be dismayed that so many people worship Jesus instead of, or in addition to the Father.
When I consider various texts I am constantly aware of exaggeration, especially from Matthew.
His tale of the mass resurrection was a whopper. Or perhaps only meant as a literary flourish.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8728
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2279 times
Been thanked: 2408 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #12

Post by Tcg »

Elijah John wrote:
For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?
In this example we find that 2 things are added to the story based on this human propensity to exaggerate:

1. God exists.
2. God intervenes in the lives of humans.

If Thomas is right, we have a story of a perfectly random work place accident. This rather ordinary event gets blown up into a tale used to promote the existence and activity of a God who actually had nothing to do with the event.

The take away from this Bible tale? No God is needed for humans to create tales developed to encourage belief in such a being.

This skeptic agrees strongly that humans "blow things up in the telling." This case is a perfect example.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #13

Post by Elijah John »

Tcg wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?
In this example we find that 2 things are added to the story based on this human propensity to exaggerate:

1. God exists.
2. God intervenes in the lives of humans.

If Thomas is right, we have a story of a perfectly random work place accident. This rather ordinary event gets blown up into a tale used to promote the existence and activity of a God who actually had nothing to do with the event.

The take away from this Bible tale? No God is needed for humans to create tales developed to encourage belief in such a being.

This skeptic agrees strongly that humans "blow things up in the telling." This case is a perfect example.


Tcg
I would ask, why would anyone need to add fanciful tales to prove or demonstrate the existence of God when we have Creation itself, and our own existence? For many, that is reason enough to believe in God. I realize even that would not convince the skeptic, but adding tales certainly doesn't help.

I don't think these additional tales of "miracles" or "fulfilled prophecy" are at all effective in the evangelists attempt to convert the skeptic. In the words of Shania Twain, "that don't impress me much".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8728
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2279 times
Been thanked: 2408 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #14

Post by Tcg »

Elijah John wrote:
Tcg wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?
In this example we find that 2 things are added to the story based on this human propensity to exaggerate:

1. God exists.
2. God intervenes in the lives of humans.

If Thomas is right, we have a story of a perfectly random work place accident. This rather ordinary event gets blown up into a tale used to promote the existence and activity of a God who actually had nothing to do with the event.

The take away from this Bible tale? No God is needed for humans to create tales developed to encourage belief in such a being.

This skeptic agrees strongly that humans "blow things up in the telling." This case is a perfect example.


Tcg
I would ask, why would anyone need to add fanciful tales to prove or demonstrate the existence of God when we have Creation itself, and our own existence?
That's a good question. Why do you think humans do so as in the example you've presented here?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Thomas123
Sage
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 am
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #15

Post by Thomas123 »

[Replying to post 14 by Tcg]

Here is the original quote, Post 6, Just makin' stuff up! SallyF.

Thomas: " was considering the death of the guy who touched the Ark. That had all the hallmarks of a freak workplace accident. I think the ox stumbled on him and he was fatally crushed. It got a bit blown up in the telling, without doubt and the story served its narrative purpose, but...
Workplace accidents involving heavy animals is all too common, unfortunately."

Thomas123
Sage
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 am
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #16

Post by Thomas123 »

2 Samuel 6:3-7 King James Version (KJV)

3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.

And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.

7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

Lots of variables here?
1. New cart
2. New crew
3.New location...confined space.
4.Volatile large animals
5.Human error.

This is reported as a sign of the perceived awesomeness of the Ark box.
A new safety statement for going forward....watch what you are doing!

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #17

Post by Elijah John »

Tcg wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Tcg wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?
In this example we find that 2 things are added to the story based on this human propensity to exaggerate:

1. God exists.
2. God intervenes in the lives of humans.

If Thomas is right, we have a story of a perfectly random work place accident. This rather ordinary event gets blown up into a tale used to promote the existence and activity of a God who actually had nothing to do with the event.

The take away from this Bible tale? No God is needed for humans to create tales developed to encourage belief in such a being.

This skeptic agrees strongly that humans "blow things up in the telling." This case is a perfect example.


Tcg
I would ask, why would anyone need to add fanciful tales to prove or demonstrate the existence of God when we have Creation itself, and our own existence?
That's a good question. Why do you think humans do so as in the example you've presented here?


Tcg
That too is a good question. Not exactly sure, but it doesn't help the cause of convincin' to add claim upon claim.

In the case of Christianity, It seems it was a simple case of hero worship gone too far. And the doctrine of the Trinity was contrived in order to maintain a semblance of Monotheism.

Thomas Paine said it this way.

A Trinity of gods enfeebles the belief
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Thomas123
Sage
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 am
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Post #18

Post by Thomas123 »

To add further intrigue to this incident you have to wonder why a sacred tabernacle of Yahweh artifacts would be risked on or near an industrial threshing floor.

The obvious conclusion would be that this oxen train, might have been doubling up as some sort of a mobile grain centre for a Nomadic people. Didn't they keep remnants of the sustaining 'manna' in the Ark? Maybe some sort of supply train? Who knows?
ps
My advice is, don't go Ark hunting, it is as productive an exercise as peering into Narcissus 's Pool.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1259 times
Been thanked: 805 times

Re: "It got a bit blown up in the telling.."

Post #19

Post by Purple Knight »

Elijah John wrote:For debate: Do skeptics err, and are they too quick to dismiss Bible tales as worthless? (Or even harmful or superstitious). In dismissing the tales of the Bible, are skeptics omitting the very real human propensity to exaggerate, and "blow things up in the telling"?
No. The Bible says what it says, and when one of us says, "Yeah... no. That can't have happened," we're referring to what it says.

If somebody wants to amend the stories toward believability, and then say that is true, I invite you to write that story and my opinion of it will not be nearly as negative.
Elijah John wrote:And conversely, are Fundamentalists erring too, when they accept the tales literally, as written. Are they also disregarding the very human propensity to "blow things up in the telling"?
Well no, not really. As soon as you accept that the Bible is not literally true, you discard it as a perfect authority. And now you have to answer all sorts of questions like why this book is considered an authority on morality at all. Like Paine said, atheists and fanatics.
Elijah John wrote:And in the words of Thomas Paine, the Bible sometimes does it's cause no justice. Paine put it this way: (to paraphrase from memory) "The Bible has produced nothing but atheists and fanatics".
Well, my theory on that is that we're all worshipers of Tash.

This goes back to a quote from Chronicles of Narnia. Now Tash (the sort of devil to Aslan's god/Jesus figure) represents evil, and there are a whole bunch of people in Calormen who have been brought up to worship Tash. They're all bound for eternal damnation, right?

Wrong. Not according to Aslan anyway.

At the very end, when the world literally ends, one Calormen soldier goes to Heaven.

Aslan tells him, "For [Tash] and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, then it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he knows it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted."

But what if, in our particular universe, there was no Aslan and it was quite on purpose? Here, out in the fringes of existence, there is only Tash. Again, quite on purpose.

Well, the good people can really only do one thing: Put Aslan's face on Tash.

It no longer boggles the mind quite so much that Christians are (generally) such decent people even though their scriptures... well... you said it yourself. Or Paine did: The Bible sometimes does its cause no justice.

Maybe that's the test.

And that's the very best light I can put any of this in.

earl
Scholar
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: Texas
Been thanked: 6 times

Post #20

Post by earl »

As I said in a post many days ago the Bible is embellished throughout.
There are many segments of stories and events written that were authentic to the original hand that first wrote them but the later hand embellished them.
There are duplicates everywhere ,one being more original and making more sense to the age in which it happened,the other becoming profane history turned into sacred history.
Here are a few that I have not read here in this forum.
There are two stories of
who made David king.

David numbering Israel

Did Thomas touch and see Jesus' scars or not?

Paul taught inherited sin -sin transference,Ezekiel did not.

God ordered his people to kill out other tribes,continued reading shows it never happened.

The ten commandments in one book is not the same in the other.One was embellished.Can you find the embellishment.

For obvious reasons man embellishes a story,but is it also just as obvious that the original story contained truth for if not why embellish it?

Post Reply