Sin Tranference

Purple Knight · Post by **Purple Knight** » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:22 pm

Sin transference seems to be a universal concept in monotheism. Christians believe* Jesus can make up for their sins, and Jews believe* that chickens can make up for their sins.

[youtube][/youtube]

(*some)

So here's my question: If you tortured a baby to death, or even just killed it, could it still potentially work? Could that baby carry your sins away somehow?

I understand that God said no more human sacrifices at one point, so perhaps it wouldn't work... but I'm asking if the act has that potential. Could it work, not would it work.

Another really, really weird question... Let's say there are humanoid aliens, and you stole one of their babies and killed it. Could that work?

Purple Knight · Post by **Purple Knight** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:42 pm

Elijah John wrote: Regarding "sin transferance", this is not something that Judaism teaches. And Jews often used Ezekiel 18.20 to make their point:

The person who sins is the one who will die.
Whatever was taught in the past to the contrary, the position against "sin transference" won out, based on the ancient verse from Ezekiel and the abolition of sacrifice in Judaism dating back to post-Temple times.

What are the Jews doing in the clip I posted in the OP?

Post by **otseng** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:45 pm

Willum wrote: That is quite the hubris to decree on other peoples.

Willum wrote: You seem uninformed about a religion you somewhat adhere to.

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Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:47 am

Purple Knight wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Regarding "sin transferance", this is not something that Judaism teaches. And Jews often used Ezekiel 18.20 to make their point:

The person who sins is the one who will die.
Whatever was taught in the past to the contrary, the position against "sin transference" won out, based on the ancient verse from Ezekiel and the abolition of sacrifice in Judaism dating back to post-Temple times.
What are the Jews doing in the clip I posted in the OP?

If it's the slaughter of an innocent animal, I don't want to see it. You are citing the exception and pointing to this as common (or majority) practice? That is a straw man fallacy, (or some other kind of fallacy).

If I were hungry, I would not tell you; for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

(Psalm 50.12,13)

Please address this, and the Ezekiel quote. How do either of these passages square with the notion of "sin transference"?

Fact is, Judaism (as a whole) outgrew the primitive practice of "sin transference though blood sacrifice" with the help of the Prophets and the sage Maimonides. (see passage cite above)

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:02 am

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Well youre in luck, once sin is transferred to it, it is no longer an innocent animal.
Are we really reduced to the level of putting our fingers n our ears, and not watching, so we neither hear nor see the truth?

Why do you invoke one, or many non-germane quotes, and call it proof, when there are so many others that counter your idea, one even cited by yourself?
It is not a typical practice to invoke random things to demonstrate ones points.

Truly this is a vexing conversation, one that can only be settled by a mirror and self realization.

Purple Knight · Post by **Purple Knight** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:32 pm

Elijah John wrote:If it's the slaughter of an innocent animal, I don't want to see it. You are citing the exception and pointing to this as common (or majority) practice?

No, I am citing that it is practiced. You said Jews don't practice it. I said they do. I don't want to get into an argument about how many of them do it, because that's not relevant to my questions.

One of my questions is could it still work with a baby instead of a chicken. (Not would it work - could it work. Obviously it wouldn't because god asked for no more human sacrifices at one point. I'm just asking if the act of killing a baby has that same potential the act of killing a chicken does.)

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:17 pm

.
Isn't it a lot less messy to just buy indulgences?

Difflugia · Post by **Difflugia** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:22 pm

Purple Knight wrote:Obviously it wouldn't because god asked for no more human sacrifices at one point.

I'm going to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure He didn't. He condemned anyone that sacrifices their children to a different god (Molech), but didn't say anything about human sacrifices to HImself.

Purple Knight · Post by **Purple Knight** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:44 pm

Difflugia wrote:I'm going to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure He didn't. He condemned anyone that sacrifices their children to a different god (Molech), but didn't say anything about human sacrifices to HImself.

I could have sworn that at one point, God had a tradition of sacrifices to himself which at first included human and later he said don't do human sacrifices anymore.

I read the Bible but it was a while ago.

SallyF · Post by **SallyF** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:52 pm

Purple Knight wrote:
Difflugia wrote:I'm going to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure He didn't. He condemned anyone that sacrifices their children to a different god (Molech), but didn't say anything about human sacrifices to HImself.
I could have sworn that at one point, God had a tradition of sacrifices to himself which at first included human and later he said don't do human sacrifices anymore.

I read the Bible but it was a while ago.

Here ya go ...

1. Leviticus 27:28-29 (NASB)

Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD.

No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

2. Exodus 22:29-30

You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

3. Joshua 6:21

They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

4. Numbers 31:25-30, 40-41 (NKJV)

Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "Count up the plunder that was taken - of man and beast - you and Eleazar the priest and the chief fathers of the congregation; and divide the plunder into two parts, between those who took part in the war, who went out to battle, and all the congregation. And levy a tribute for the LORD on the men of war who went out to battle: one of every five hundred of the persons, the cattle, the donkeys, and the sheep; take it from their half, and give it to Eleazar the priest as a heave offering to the LORD. And from the children of Israel's half you shall take one of every fifty, drawn from the persons, the cattle, the donkeys, and the sheep, from all the livestock, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD."

The persons were sixteen thousand, of which the LORD's tribute was thirty-two persons. So Moses gave the tribute which was the LORD's heave offering to Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

5. Genesis 22:2

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

6. Judges 11:30-39

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.

And of course

In the contradictory jumble of "scripture"

We can find verses that contradict the notion that Jehovah loves human sacrifice.

Until we come to the New Testament "scripture"

And then we find that Jehovah sent the Holy Ghost to create a human

So THAT very special human

Could become a human sacrifice to HIM

And transfer the sins of THE ENTIRE WORLD on to himself

And give Christianity the MONOPOLY on the tickets to Paradise.

WAY better than goats and such !