Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[JehovahsWitness]

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No, I am saying we are still in the generation as long as there is a contemporary of those that saw that war ?

I'm starting to catch on to how this apologetics thing works.

When people of the WWII 'generation' die off we can switch to saying that if an ovum or sperm existing in that era resulted in a live birth 40 years later, that person as being in 'the generation'.

No because a frozen sperm or even ferilized egg cannot identify the time they are living in much less the significance of the signs Jesus pointed to. The people in this group needed to have lived for at least a portion of their lives at the same time as spirit anointed Christians as those equally spirit anointed individuals of 1914 . This would not be the case for a spermatozoon - which isnt biblically a person at all, or even for a baby (born or unborn), which is could not possibly be a Christian much less be considered part of the "generation" that identified the times.

In short Jesus was pointing to a group of individuals that would be identifiable by their spiritual understandjng of the significance of 1914 and their the contempories that could do the same. We are thus talking about adults not zygotes.



JW

[Danmark]

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No, I am saying we are still in the generation as long as there is a contemporary of those that saw that war ?

I'm starting to catch on to how this apologetics thing works.

When people of the WWII 'generation' die off we can switch to saying that if an ovum or sperm existing in that era resulted in a live birth 40 years later, that person as being in 'the generation'.

No because a frozen sperm or even ferilized egg cannot identify the time they are living in much less the significance of the signs Jesus pointed to. The people in this group needed to have lived for at least a portion of their lives at the same time as spirit anointed Christians as those equally spirit anointed individuals of 1914 . This would not be the case for a spermatozoon - which isnt biblically a person at all, or even for a baby (born or unborn), which is could not possibly be a Christian much less be considered part of the "generation" that identified the times.

In short Jesus was pointing to a group of individuals that would be identifiable by their spiritual understandjng of the significance of 1914 and their the contempories that could do the same. We are thus talking about adults not zygotes.

If this is so, why are JW's staunchly against abortion?

[Zzyzx]

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In short Jesus was pointing to a group of individuals that would be identifiable by their spiritual understandjng of the significance of 1914 and their the contempories that could do the same. We are thus talking about adults not zygotes.

If we are talking about people who were adults in 1914, they were born before 1900 and would now be at least 120 years old. Seems like a bit of a stretch -- but some readers may take it seriously.

Perhaps 'spirit anointed Christians' live a long time -- like Noah; 950 years reported. Some evidently take that seriously too.

[Diagoras]

From a secular perspective, we are definitely in the last days in the world as we know it. Globally, we are entering economic, societal, and political collapse. Looking at our dashboard, all the gauges and dials are spinning like crazy and the signs are off the charts. Just yesterday, crude oil hit negative $37.63 a barrel. What in the world does that mean?

I know the debate’s moved on a bit from this point, but I recently came across this article which I found interesting for its explanation of some of the oil price swings.

My point being: ‘scary’ news can often be explained quickly by conspiracy theory or religiously-inspired prophecy. But with a little more effort to understand all the facts, the actual story is fairly mundane. It’s not a sign of ‘the end of the world’ - it’s just businesses making rational decisions.

[JehovahsWitness]

If we are talking about people who were adults in 1914, they were born before 1900 and would now be at least 120 years old.

Are you suggesting that someone that was an adult before all those that saw the first world war of 1914 died, would now be 120 years old? "Living contemporaneously" doesn't mean being the same age, it means being alive at the same time. I had a good friend that was alive before 1914 and my own dear grandmother died long after I was 18 (and she too lived through the great war). I assure you I'm not 120 years old (although sometimes I feel I am.)

The people in this group needed to have lived for at least a portion of their lives at the same time as ... individuals of 1914 .

In short Jesus was pointing to a group of individuals that would be identifiable by their spiritual understandjng of the significance of 1914 and their the contempories that could do the same.

Definition of GENERATION

1a: a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor

b: a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously.

c: a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (such as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period


source https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generation

JW

[otseng]

My point being: ‘scary’ news can often be explained quickly by conspiracy theory or religiously-inspired prophecy. But with a little more effort to understand all the facts, the actual story is fairly mundane. It’s not a sign of ‘the end of the world’ - it’s just businesses making rational decisions.

I'm not suggesting negative oil prices are caused by religious reasons or even a fulfillment of prophecy. Of course it's mostly market forces that account for prices of goods. But, what I am saying is that we're seeing things now that have never been seen before in history. Many things now are described as "unprecedented" that it's now an overused term.

At a minimum, we are living in a unique time in history and it will dramatically alter what life will be like after we all go through this. And as time progresses, I believe the case is building that this could be the Biblical last days.

[Zzyzx]

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At a minimum, we are living in a unique time in history and it will dramatically alter what life will be like after we all go through this.

Exactly the same can be said for may events of the past.

"The Black Death [Bubonic plague 1347 to 1351] was the second plague pandemic recorded, after the Plague of Justinian (542–546). The plague created religious, social, and economic upheavals, with profound effects on the course of European history." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

And as time progresses, I believe the case is building that this could be the Biblical last days.

How is the present pandemic any more a sign of 'the biblical last days' than previous pandemics?

[otseng]

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At a minimum, we are living in a unique time in history and it will dramatically alter what life will be like after we all go through this.

Exactly the same can be said for may events of the past.

Though there has been of course pandemics in the past, as far as I know, this is the first global pandemic that has affected every country in the world.

How is the present pandemic any more a sign of 'the biblical last days' than previous pandemics?

A passage that describes the beginning of the last days is Matt 24:7.

Mat 24:7 NIV - Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

We shall see if this plays out.

From the look of things, the way Trump is handling the epidemic now is leading to a serious confrontation with China -- which I don't think will end very well for the US. Revelation refers to an army with 200 million troops. If this number is to be taken literally, this most likely would refer to China.

Rev 9:16 NLT - I heard the size of their army, which was 200 million mounted troops.

As for famines, even the secular media claims the Coronavirus pandemic 'will cause famine of biblical proportions'.

Let's see if we will hear of massive earthquakes of Biblical proportions next.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 168 by otseng]

I would say rhe pandemic in terms of mortality rate is far from historic, indeed if official figures are tto be believed the mortality rate (which is the only thing that matter not the infection rate ) is lower than the influenza we're had over the past few years. That said what is absolutely unique and historical on a biblical scale is the lockdown. Never befor in the history of humanity have so many people been placed confinement and the after effects on every level of human society is going to be world changing.

We are living through history and many Christians have a good idea what is next.


JW

[Goose]

Though there has been of course pandemics in the past, as far as I know, this is the first global pandemic that has affected every country in the world.

But why does a larger global scope imply these are the last days when there have been other, arguably worse, global pandemics in the past?

A passage that describes the beginning of the last days is Matt 24:7.

Mat 24:7 NIV - Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

We shall see if this plays out.

The Preterist (fulfilled) view would say these prophecies have already happened.

From the look of things, the way Trump is handling the epidemic now is leading to a serious confrontation with China -- which I don't think will end very well for the US.

What do you mean by “serious confrontation�? Do you mean military confrontation between China and the US? If so, what evidence is there of that? So far, it seems Trump is hastening his ongoing agenda to move America’s supply chain away from China with further tariffs and the like.

Revelation refers to an army with 200 million troops. If this number is to be taken literally, this most likely would refer to China.

Why would it most likely be China? And Revelations shouldn’t be taken literally without some good reasons. Revelations is known to be an apocalyptic genre.

Rev 9:16 NLT - I heard the size of their army, which was 200 million mounted troops.

Right, but Revelations 9:16ff also says that army will be on horses that have heads of lions and tales like serpents. They will breath smoke, fire, and brimstone. Their riders had red, blue, and yellow breastplates. What makes you think this is most likely China?

As for famines, even the secular media claims the Coronavirus pandemic 'will cause famine of biblical proportions'.

Ah yes, the media. This is David Beasley, executive director of the World Food Programme, raising the alarm with governments to avoid a greater potential famine in certain countries that was already prevalent before COVID19.

From the Guardian article you linked to:

�According to a report produced by the UN and other organisations on Thursday, at least 265 million people are being pushed to the brink of starvation by the Covid-19 crisis, double the number under threat before the pandemic.�

�About 265 million people around the world are forecast to be facing acute food insecurity by the end of this year, a doubling of the 130 million estimated to suffer severe food shortages last year.� – The Guardian

COVID19 surely has the potential to worsen existing food shortages in certain counties. But surely we can say that 130 million people suffering a severe food shortage last year is also ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’. If we can say there was already ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’ in existence before COVID19 it seems to undermine the notion that COVID19 is causing or will cause ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’.