Was Jesus crystal clear?

[marco]

Jesus played with figurative language: lambs, shepherds, goats and sheep, harvesting, missing money, silly virgins, ungrateful lepers and nice Samaritans. He never said direct things like:

"I'm not God, just a representative who has learned scripture."

"The holy Spirit I speak of is the personification of inspiration and moral support."

"It was wrongly reported that my Father asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. He would never ask such a wicked thing. Nor did he want infants slaughtered. "

"Heaven's not a physical place. You don't get there through ascensions."


Instead we are told his language can be understood only by those who have done a course in sheep talk. This to rational minds is nonsensical.

Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?
Can we regard his miracles as figurative too?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Vagueness has the beauty that it gives Jack and Jill and Johnny a chance to find in it support for their own theologies. "I give you the keys of the kingdom." Why on earth would he say such a thing, knowing it can be interpreted in various ways?

I think his figurative language brings questions about his credentials, rather than offers proof that he's God. We can all be born again if we supply our own born again meaning.

[1213]

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Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?
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I think that is interesting, if you dont understand what Jesus told. To me it is clear what he is speaking. So, what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?

[William]

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Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?
...

I think that is interesting, if you dont understand what Jesus told. To me it is clear what he is speaking. So, what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?

It is problematic. Are such questions for the purpose of wanting to be convinced or wanting to convince?

Is the world so full of 'rational minds' that we can look at it and declare Jesus the fool?

Or is the overall instruction to go deep purposed in breaking through the walls of assumed rationality to explore that which said walls are concealing?

Could it be that Jesus was being rational in relation to what was being concealed, and that equates to 'irrationality' to those who 'hear' with ears that cannot hear...because minds which cannot know, filter the data through purely materialistic rational?

These questions are interesting but don't keep me up at night...

[Clownboat]

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Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?
...

I think that is interesting, if you dont understand what Jesus told. To me it is clear what he is speaking. So, what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?

Now there is some irony.
You claim to understand things that Jesus has said, but failed to even understand the question that was asked of you here.

How is it be that you cannot understand:
"Why do you suppose Jesus spoke figuratively instead of being direct?"

I lose faith in your claim that you understand Jesus when you seem to have issue answering plain questions like the one above. Yet you double down. You not only ignore the question posed to you (even though you quoted it for us all), but you then pretend to make it sound like you have special knowledge that escapes the rest of us.

"what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?" -1213

Perhaps you can clarify what Jesus ment below for us? Please be clear.
John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

[marco]

I think that is interesting, if you dont understand what Jesus told. To me it is clear what he is speaking. So, what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?

I have learned from our discussions that things are clear to you. I understand this to mean that the interpretation you extract is, in your view, the right one.

"And the word was God" - many debate this. Was Jesus God? What was "logos"?
"Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven" - Can priests forgive sins then?
"This is my body" - can the bread he was breaking be his body? And if people repeat what he did will they conjure up Christ's body.
"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter heaven." Are unbaptised babies excluded from heaven then?

Luckily you have the right answers but billions of others take a variety of interpretations. In framing my question I was thinking of the confused billions rather than someone for whom "it is clear."

And why is it unclear to me and clear to you? I imagine that you are much cleverer than I am and your brain assesses material in a way superior to my own humble instrument. I suppose I must look for the crumbs that fall from the table of the enlightened. Go well.

[William]

I think that is interesting, if you dont understand what Jesus told. To me it is clear what he is speaking. So, what could be the reason why it is unclear to you, but clear to me?

I have learned from our discussions that things are clear to you. I understand this to mean that the interpretation you extract is, in your view, the right one.

"And the word was God" - many debate this. Was Jesus God? What was "logos"?
"Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven" - Can priests forgive sins then?
"This is my body" - can the bread he was breaking be his body? And if people repeat what he did will they conjure up Christ's body.
"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter heaven." Are unbaptised babies excluded from heaven then?

Luckily you have the right answers but billions of others take a variety of interpretations. In framing my question I was thinking of the confused billions rather than someone for whom "it is clear."

And why is it unclear to me and clear to you? I imagine that you are much cleverer than I am and your brain assesses material in a way superior to my own humble instrument. I suppose I must look for the crumbs that fall from the table of the enlightened. Go well.

I am not under the impression you are interested in crumbs. You are trying to point out that billions of others take a variety of interpretations as if one cannot understand the significance of that.

He who searches will indeed find. Then be numbered among the billions.

He who stands at the sidelines with the pretense of 'wanting to know' but never personally really actually looking - isn't going to find. For who shall find what one is not looking for?

Let those who's minds are not unduly influenced by the accuser, seek and find. The accuser knows so little that the little the accuser knows, isn't actually worth knowing...

[William]

[Replying to post 5 by Clownboat]

Perhaps you can clarify what Jesus ment below for us? Please be clear.
John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

I would say that in context, Jesus was pointing out to those closest to him, that he had things to say plainly but first let the unusual language help to dislodge years of prior learning...humans are slow but not stupid...it requires symbolism to weaken the chains of [strike]symbolism[/strike]...

[marco]

I would say that in context, Jesus was pointing out to those closest to him, that he had things to say plainly but first let the unusual language help to dislodge years of prior learning...humans are slow but not stupid...it requires symbolism to weaken the chains of [strike]symbolism[/strike]...

Well thank goodness lecturers do not adopt this circuitous path to passing on knowledge. Some humans are stupid and some are not; we don't know how many stupid people were among the apostles. The "unusual language" of metaphor and fable was perfectly common in Greek and Roman societies but they didn't pretend it was some esoteric code.

[marco]

He who searches will indeed find. Then be numbered among the billions.

He who searches might never find. Here's a poem by Edgar Allan Poe on the idea of searching for a golden purpose:

Gaily bedight
A gallant knight,
In sunshine and in shadow,
Had journeyed long,
Singing a song,
In search of Eldorado.

But he grew old"
This knight so bold"
And oer his heart a shadow
Fell, as he found
No spot of ground
That looked like Eldorado.

And, as his strength
Failed him at length,
He met a pilgrim shadow"
Shadow, said he,
Where can it be"
This land of Eldorado?

Over the Mountains
Of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,
The shade replied,"
If you seek for Eldorado!

We can search our entire life and not find. It is one of Christ's follies to say: "Seek and ye shall find; knock and the door will be opened." We can hope this is so but hope opens no doors.

He who stands at the sidelines with the pretense of 'wanting to know' but never personally really actually looking - isn't going to find. For who shall find what one is not looking for?

I don't know if you're quoting from the Book of Wisdom or just making up an aphorism but I see no reason why a spectator cannot pick something up, just as Simon of Cyrene picked up Christ's cross. Milton observed that they also serve who only stand and wait. As for finding what we weren't looking for - it happens lots of times.

Let those who's minds are not unduly influenced by the accuser, seek and find. The accuser knows so little that the little the accuser knows, isn't actually worth knowing...

I am sure this has meaning but we have enough to do finding meaning in the Lord's pronouncements without introducing other enigmas.