It seems like Mark thought Jesus was God

[Wootah]

From this link: https://scottmsullivan.com/2-mind-blowi ... of-christ/

He mentions

Psalm 107:23-32 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Mark 4:35-41 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Basically Psalm 107 mentions YHVH as calming the sea and then in Mark some guy called Jesus calms the sea.

How can we not see the resemblance?

How can we claim to be Christian and not have faith in who Jesus is?

[PinSeeker]

Basically Psalm 107 mentions YHVH as calming the sea and then in Mark some guy called Jesus calms the sea.

How can we not see the resemblance?

Whether there's an intentional connection to Psalm 107 or not, there's an even more unmistakable connection to Jonah 1:4-6:

Yahweh sent a great wind upon the sea and there was a mighty storm so that the ship would probably be destroyed. The mariners were afraid, each man called to his gods, and they threw the cargo that was in the ship into the sea to lighten it. But Jonah had gone down to the bottom of the ship, where he lay asleep. So the captain came and said to him, "How can you sleep? Arise and call to your gods, so that the gods will notice us and we won't perish."

Compare Mark 4:37-38:

And there arose a great windstorm and the waves broke into the boat, such that the boat was now filling. But he himself [Jesus] was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. They woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care that we perish?"

The punchline is that Jonah couldn't still the storm because he was fleeing God. Jesus was able to harness the power that was withheld from Jonah. The detail that Jesus was fast asleep in the bottom of the boat is a connection to a very memorable point in the Jonah story. Once Mark has our attention, Jesus completed the miracle that Jonah should have been able to. Jonah couldn't still the storm because he was fleeing God, not because he wasn't God.

To show that's what Mark was doing, the very next story in Mark includes a similar reference to one of Elijah's first miracles. Mark has the Gerasene demoniac quote the widow of Zarephath:

Mark 5:7:

...and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the highest God? By God, I beg you not to torment me!"

1 Kings 17:18:

And she said to Elijah, "What have I to do with you, man of God? You have come to me to memorialize my sin and slay my son!"

The audience would be expected to see the connection between Jesus and Elijah, who was considered to be the greatest prophet in terms of commanding (or harnessing, or whatever) the power of God as mighty works. In addition, then, to controlling the weather (which, incidentally, Elijah could also do), chapter 5 establishes that Jesus was as powerful as any of the prophets, being able to command demons (which may be a reference to the extrabiblical "Testament of Solomon"), heal the sick, and raise the dead.

That's most excellent, Difflugia. Most excellent indeed. The reference Mark is making is directly to the account of Jonah and Psalm 107 both. Regarding Jonah, in the way that you describe (Jonah only knew that God's actions were his fault for disobeying Him and attempting to flee), and Psalm 107 the way Wootah describes (Mark is directly attributing the deeds of God the Father to God the Son and vice-versa).

[myth-one.com]

Basically Psalm 107 mentions YHVH as calming the sea and then in Mark some guy called Jesus calms the sea.

How can we not see the resemblance?

How can we claim to be Christian and not have faith in who Jesus is?

Jesus Christ was born on the earth as a flesh and blood mortal man, with all our characteristics and weaknesses to be tempted and tested as we are!

So the "guy named Jesus" had no power to calm the sea, raise people from the dead, change water into wine, or perform any other miracle.

If He was a God during His thirty-three years on the earth, He could have performed such feats directly with His own godly powers.

Since this was not the case, He had to pray to God His Father to perform acts beyond His human capabilities!

One of many examples, is the raising of Lazarus from the dead:

Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 11:41-42)

Jesus had already prayed to God the Father about raising Lazarus from the dead, and God had already answered His prayer!

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 12 by myth-one.com]

According to the gospels, there were many miracles that they could have picked from Jesus life.

John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

So the ones that are chosen are not random but selected by the gospel writers.

Why would they select this miracle and why would God permit a miracle to occur that would link a man to God?

How might this miracle under debate support Jesus being the Son of God according to you?

How is Jesus the Son of God for you in your theology of him being just a man?

[myth-one.com]

It seems like Mark thought Jesus was God.

It seems like Luke thought Jesus was God.

Again, the earliest testimony is clear as to how the early Church understood their Christ: Jesus of Nazareth is none other than the Lord God of Israel in the flesh.

=====================================================

But the Bible states:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth.

He was made a man "for the suffering of death!"

============================================

God is immortal.

If Jesus is God, then He could not suffer death.

So that doesn't work unless you guys believe God can die.
============================================

If God is immortal, and Jesus is God, then Jesus could not succeed in His mission.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 13 by myth-one.com]

As God, Jesus was able to lay His life down and take it up again -- of His own initiative. John is exceedingly clear on this:

• "...I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again..." [John 10:17-18]

And this, He indisputably did. Jesus says, "I lay it down, and I take it up again." Only God Himself has authority over life and death. It's exceedingly clear. Ohhhh.... but Jesus was given this authority by God Himself, right? Well, yes, but still, only God wields this authority.

Furthermore -- and I know this is disputed by various Christian (and non-Christian, of course) groups in error -- Paul is likewise exceedingly clear that Jesus, although fully God, laid His status as God and equality with the Father in every way aside for a time and took on the likeness of man in every way -- mortality included -- for the purpose of fulfilling the will of the Father and accomplishing our redemption. It should not be understood that Jesus was not God for a period of 33 years or for any period at all, before, during, or since His life on earth. Paul is likewise exceedingly clear on this:

• "...Christ Jesus, Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant..." [Philippians 2:5-11]

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

As God, Jesus was able to lay His life down . . .

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is God immortal??

If so, God cannot lay His life down -- ever!

So as a God, the Word could not lay His life down.

That is why The Word had to be made flesh as the man Jesus Christ, so that the man Jesus could live a sinless life and lay His life down!

Jesus was a man, and man did not exist in the beginning!

[Difflugia]

Paul is likewise exceedingly clear on this:

• "...Christ Jesus, Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant..." [Philippians 2:5-11]

Without addressing the rest of your argument, the "kenosis hymn" is anything but clear. The discussion of these seven verses occupies 45 pages of Reumann's volume on Philippians in the Anchor Yale Bible series, excluding the bibliography (a further six pages). The Philippians volume of the Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament by Joseph H. Hellerman puts it this way (p. 105):

The literature on Philippians 2:5–11 has become virtually unmanageable. Scholars have produced whole books on single terms in the passage (e.g., Fabricatore on μο�φή, below). The limitations of the EGGNT format necessitate a highly abbreviated treatment of this central Christological passage.

Here, "highly abbreviated" means 24 pages of discussion.

[tam]

[Replying to post 14 by PinSeeker]

It should not be understood that Jesus was not God for a period of 33 years or for any period at all, before, during, or since His life on earth. Paul is likewise exceedingly clear on this:

"...Christ Jesus, Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant..." [Philippians 2:5-11]

Interestingly, to me, this verse reads as evidence against the idea that Christ is God ("YHWH").


A - Why say Christ existed in the form of God... instead of saying 'though Christ existed as God'? The fact that Paul describes Christ as existing in the form of God, rather than 'as' God, suggests that Paul did not think Christ was God ("YHWH").

B - It makes sense that if Christ existed in the FORM of God that He not regard equality with God as a thing to be grasped. It does not make sense if Christ existed AS God, to say that he did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped. Note that 'not regarding equality with God as a thing to be grasped' is something Christ felt BEFORE emptying Himself and taking the form of a bond-servant.

[PinSeeker]

Paul is likewise exceedingly clear on this:

• "...Christ Jesus, Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant..." [Philippians 2:5-11]

Without addressing the rest of your argument, the "kenosis hymn" is anything but clear. The discussion of these seven verses occupies 45 pages of Reumann's volume on Philippians in the Anchor Yale Bible series, excluding the bibliography (a further six pages). The Philippians volume of the Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament by Joseph H. Hellerman puts it this way (p. 105):

The literature on Philippians 2:5–11 has become virtually unmanageable. Scholars have produced whole books on single terms in the passage (e.g., Fabricatore on μο�φή, below). The limitations of the EGGNT format necessitate a highly abbreviated treatment of this central Christological passage.

Here, "highly abbreviated" means 24 pages of discussion.

Men are highly prone to make messes of things where there was/is none. In any case, it does not necessarily follow from the fact that a thing is disputed that the thing in question lacks clarity.

Grace and peace to you, Difflugia.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus was a man, and man did not exist in the beginning!

Right, He did not walk the earth until, you know, He did.

And -- praise the Lord -- He will again. The government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace... Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this (Isaiah 9).

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.