Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

[Biker]

Funny, I think I asked you the same question earlier?

Odd, I think I answered it Re: What is a "Believer?"

These two statements are mutually exclusive. In fact, contradictory.

Then as a believer.

I have never experienced anything that I could describe as God bearing witness with with my spirit regarding this issue.

First you say that you are a believer. Then you say that God has never bore witness with your spirit regarding the belief issue.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

[Quote="Acts 5:32] "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." [/quote]
That is the reason I ask for clarification, you are being contradictory.
Lets see what Paul has to say in a bit more detail: Romans Chapter 8.
1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to Gods law, nor can it do so.
8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation- but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
14 because those who are lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.
17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
A couple of points. If you are a believer you receive Gods Spirit. Gods Spirit witnesses with your spirit that you are a son of God plus much more.
So that is why I am a bit confused when you make those contradictory statements.
Are you sure you believed? Perhaps you did not have your mind on what the Spirit desired?Perhaps you were living according to the sinful nature, and not according to the Spirit?
Myself, Gods Spirit continually witnesses with my spirit I am a son of God, just as described above. I have to consciously go along with the Spirit and not my old sinful nature, so I have a part to play.
Did you receive the Spirit of Christ?

Biker

[Biker]

Isn't unbeliever and skeptic, synonymous?

You really need to learn to use a dictionary. An unbeliever is someone who does not believe something. A skeptic is someone who will not believe something without evidence.

Well I have learned to use the Webster's New World/ Roget's A-Z Thesaurus, 1997 edition.
skeptic, n.- Syn. doubter, UNBELIEVER, cynic, questioner, infidel, heathen, freethinker, atheist, deist, agnostic, heretic, disbeliever, Pyrrhonist, pagan, anti-Christian, dissenter, latitudinarian, misbeliever, rationalist, profaner, materialist, positivist, nihilist, somatist, scoffer, apostate, blasphemer; see also cynic.
Like I said earlier, they are synonymous.

[Furrowed Brow]

Isn't unbeliever and skeptic, synonymous?

You really need to learn to use a dictionary. An unbeliever is someone who does not believe something. A skeptic is someone who will not believe something without evidence.

Well I have learned to use the Webster's New World/ Roget's A-Z Thesaurus, 1997 edition.
skeptic, n.- Syn. doubter, UNBELIEVER, cynic, questioner, infidel, heathen, freethinker, atheist, deist, agnostic, heretic, disbeliever, Pyrrhonist, pagan, anti-Christian, dissenter, latitudinarian, misbeliever, rationalist, profaner, materialist, positivist, nihilist, somatist, scoffer, apostate, blasphemer; see also cynic.
Like I said earlier, they are synonymous.

Well a sceptic is someone who doubts, an unbeliever is someone who lacks belief. I find the distinction interesting. As an atheist, a theist would paint me as a sceptic and an unbeliever I guess. But I don't think sceptic is right. I don't have belief in many things, fairies, father Christmas, the force, faith can move mountains and so on. It would be a misuse of language to say I as a sceptic in these matters. To call me a sceptic is to add a veneer of credibility that the subject does not warrant. And of course I'll add God to that list too.

[Cogitoergosum]

How do you become a believer?

It has been said.

Seek and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened.

This worked for me.

Regards
DL

For billions it did not work.

Matthew 7:13-14
" Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."
John 14:1+6
" Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."
" Jesus said to him, ' I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.' "
Billions and Billions are entering through that gate, that way! Sadly, many will not!
Will you enter the narrow one?
Jesus is the narrow gate.

Biker

And frodo said we need to destroy saruman's ring in the volcano. So what.

[Greatest I Am]

If God is waiting for man to reproduce enough and fill the earth then we must wonder just how full fill is.
The numbers of humans is on the rise and the numbers seeking God are as well. As this continues, added stress on our systems will create the parameters of God's return.

Regards
DL

[Biker]

How do you become a believer?

It has been said.

Seek and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened.

This worked for me.

Regards
DL

For billions it did not work.

Matthew 7:13-14
" Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."
John 14:1+6
" Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."
" Jesus said to him, ' I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.' "
Billions and Billions are entering through that gate, that way! Sadly, many will not!
Will you enter the narrow one?
Jesus is the narrow gate.

Biker

And frodo said we need to destroy saruman's ring in the volcano. So what.

What does a piece of hollyweird fiction have to do in relation to the inerrant Bible? You really should start studying truth, the Bible, the overwhelming majority of scholars for 2000 years have accepted the Bible as truth and historically accurate. What does a piece of fiction have to do in relation to the most esteemed book in the history of man?
33% of the planet believes it and growing, fast.
Biker

[WelshBoy]

the overwhelming majority of scholars for 2000 years have accepted the Bible as truth and historically accurate.

Can you back up this assertion?

33% of the planet believes it and growing, fast.

Woops! Here comes that well worn Argumentum ad Populum again! Do you have a copyright on it or something?

And just FYI, Lord Of The Rings was written by an englishman named J.R.R Tolkien, and thus is not a piece of Hollywood fiction.

[Biker]

Isn't unbeliever and skeptic, synonymous?

You really need to learn to use a dictionary. An unbeliever is someone who does not believe something. A skeptic is someone who will not believe something without evidence.

Well I have learned to use the Webster's New World/ Roget's A-Z Thesaurus, 1997 edition.
skeptic, n.- Syn. doubter, UNBELIEVER, cynic, questioner, infidel, heathen, freethinker, atheist, deist, agnostic, heretic, disbeliever, Pyrrhonist, pagan, anti-Christian, dissenter, latitudinarian, misbeliever, rationalist, profaner, materialist, positivist, nihilist, somatist, scoffer, apostate, blasphemer; see also cynic.
Like I said earlier, they are synonymous.

Well a sceptic is someone who doubts, an unbeliever is someone who lacks belief. I find the distinction interesting. As an atheist, a theist would paint me as a sceptic and an unbeliever I guess. But I don't think sceptic is right. I don't have belief in many things, fairies, father Christmas, the force, faith can move mountains and so on. It would be a misuse of language to say I as a sceptic in these matters. To call me a sceptic is to add a veneer of credibility that the subject does not warrant. And of course I'll add God to that list too.

What I find interesting is the group of opinions and worldviews that are synonymous. If you will notice, it is a grouping of worldviews, at odds with, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The historically verifiable God who appeared, (empirically). And who was not accepted by the above synonymous group. So in essence, in reality, it's denial!
reality n., 1 the quality or fact of being real 2 a person or thing that is real; fact 3 the quality of being true to life.
As for me I not only have the record (Bible), but have the Holy Spirit Himself witnessing with my spirit that I am a son of God, and I was made that by Jesus Christ, the historical figure, who lives, whom I enjoy daily fellowship with, presently.

Biker

[Goat]

Isn't unbeliever and skeptic, synonymous?

You really need to learn to use a dictionary. An unbeliever is someone who does not believe something. A skeptic is someone who will not believe something without evidence.

Well I have learned to use the Webster's New World/ Roget's A-Z Thesaurus, 1997 edition.
skeptic, n.- Syn. doubter, UNBELIEVER, cynic, questioner, infidel, heathen, freethinker, atheist, deist, agnostic, heretic, disbeliever, Pyrrhonist, pagan, anti-Christian, dissenter, latitudinarian, misbeliever, rationalist, profaner, materialist, positivist, nihilist, somatist, scoffer, apostate, blasphemer; see also cynic.
Like I said earlier, they are synonymous.

Well a sceptic is someone who doubts, an unbeliever is someone who lacks belief. I find the distinction interesting. As an atheist, a theist would paint me as a sceptic and an unbeliever I guess. But I don't think sceptic is right. I don't have belief in many things, fairies, father Christmas, the force, faith can move mountains and so on. It would be a misuse of language to say I as a sceptic in these matters. To call me a sceptic is to add a veneer of credibility that the subject does not warrant. And of course I'll add God to that list too.

What I find interesting is the group of opinions and worldviews that are synonymous. If you will notice, it is a grouping of worldviews, at odds with, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The historically verifiable God who appeared, (empirically). And who was not accepted by the above synonymous group. So in essence, in reality, it's denial!
reality n., 1 the quality or fact of being real 2 a person or thing that is real; fact 3 the quality of being true to life.
As for me I not only have the record (Bible), but have the Holy Spirit Himself witnessing with my spirit that I am a son of God, and I was made that by Jesus Christ, the historical figure, who lives, whom I enjoy daily fellowship with, presently.

Biker

There never was a man named Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is a provable fact.

[Biker]

the overwhelming majority of scholars for 2000 years have accepted the Bible as truth and historically accurate.

Can you back up this assertion?

33% of the planet believes it and growing, fast.

Woops! Here comes that well worn Argumentum ad Populum again! Do you have a copyright on it or something?

And just FYI, Lord Of The Rings was written by an englishman named J.R.R Tolkien, and thus is not a piece of Hollywood fiction.

How would you characterize a document, that old and that large, written by that many people, carefully, accurately, documented and handed down generation to generation, through a myriad of geography, cultures, times, and peoples and still be 99.5% accurate to the autograph? And, not be accepted by the overwhelming majority of scholars. The thing was copied by hand by thousands of different scribes until 1455 A.D. Do you think critical review of the text has just gone on recently? It has been critically reviewed for thousands of years. Still standing, inerrantly I might add!
This 33% of the planet figure was just aired on CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc. I didn't come up with it, pollsters did.
Argumentum ad Populum Huh? Never mind it's true, though!
And just FYI J.R.R. Tolkien was a South African by birth! You know one of those [sarcasm] "Colonies" England is so famous for. [/sarcasm] And I was referring to hollyweirds version of the fantasy fiction set in middle earth.
BTW FYI did you know Tolkien was a Christian believer and friend of C.S. Lewis?

Biker