Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

[Revelations won]

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my take on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my take on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.


Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Exodus 3:14 God calls himself I AM 3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was I AM. 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM.


Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


1Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Psalms 118:22-24 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.





Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


John 10:1-11 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Hebrews 2:8-11 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Colossians 2:8-14 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[myth-one.com]

Not to lend relevancy or credence to the assertion that Jesus is not God because He prayed, but, well, did He pray before He calmed the sea? No. Did He pray when He turned the water to wine? No. Did he pray when He multiplied the fish and the bread and fed over 20,000 people? No. Did He pray when He pronounced the forgiveness of sins? No.

Maybe you all know Isaiah 35 as I do. It is one of my favorite passages in Scripture. Isaiah is speaking of what God will do for those He saves: "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy." So, continuing, did Jesus pray when He healed the lame? No. Did He pray when He made the blind to see? No. Did He pray when He healed the mute man? No. Did He pray when He made the deaf to hear? No.

The list goes on.

Can anyone reading the above explain how PinSeeker knows that Jesus did not pray before those events he mentioned?

[PinSeeker]

Can anyone reading the above explain how PinSeeker knows that Jesus did not pray before those events he mentioned?

Well, if they can read, certainly they can.

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

Can anyone reading the above explain how PinSeeker knows that Jesus did not pray before those events he mentioned?

Well, if they can read, certainly they can.

Grace and peace to all.

Not to lend relevancy or credence to the assertion that Jesus is not God because He prayed, but, well, did He pray before He calmed the sea? No.

You ask the question, "did He pray before He calmed the sea?"

Then you answer the question: No.

Please provide the proof for your answer, or retract it.

Thanks

[Tcg]

Not to lend relevancy or credence to the assertion that Jesus is not God because He prayed, but, well, did He pray before He calmed the sea? No. Did He pray when He turned the water to wine? No. Did he pray when He multiplied the fish and the bread and fed over 20,000 people? No. Did He pray when He pronounced the forgiveness of sins? No.

Maybe you all know Isaiah 35 as I do. It is one of my favorite passages in Scripture. Isaiah is speaking of what God will do for those He saves: "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy." So, continuing, did Jesus pray when He healed the lame? No. Did He pray when He made the blind to see? No. Did He pray when He healed the mute man? No. Did He pray when He made the deaf to hear? No.

The list goes on.

Can anyone reading the above explain how PinSeeker knows that Jesus did not pray before those events he mentioned?

The most that can be said is that the Bible provides no record of Jesus praying before these events. That wouldn't support a claim that he didn't pray before them.

If the statistic I found is correct, the Bible only records Jesus praying 25 times. This is not evidence that Jesus only prayed 25 times. All it provides evidence of is that Jesus did pray the 25 times it is recorded. It is not evidence that he didn't pray any other time.


Tcg

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #151]

Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

So Jesus was a man:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Jehovah is not a man:

God is a Spirit: (John 4:24)

Jehovah is God and a Spirit.

Jesus was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

So Jesus was never Jehovah.

Jesus Christ did not even exist until born in the New Testament.

[PinSeeker]

You ask the question, "did He pray before He calmed the sea?" Then you answer the question: No. Please provide the proof for your answer, or retract it. Thanks.

Well the burden of proof is really on you, myth-one. Prove to me that He did (pray before He calmed the sea). Good luck with that...

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

[PinSeeker]

The most that can be said is that the Bible provides no record of Jesus praying before these events. That wouldn't support a claim that he didn't pray before them.

The silence is deafening, though, Tcg, especially in view of the fact that there are events in the Bible that He did pray before -- very momentous events, as these were -- and it was explicitly documented. So I would say that we have it in writing -- implicitly and/or inferentially -- that He did not pray before those events; therefore, the burden of proof is on those who say he did pray before those events, and that burden cannot be met or even approached.

If the statistic I found is correct, the Bible only records Jesus praying 25 times. This is not evidence that Jesus only prayed 25 times. All it provides evidence of is that Jesus did pray the 25 times it is recorded. It is not evidence that he didn't pray any other time.

Most certainly agreed. I mean, elsewhere in the Bible, we are exhorted to pray without ceasing, right? Well that doesn't mean, "pray all the time and do nothing else," as if we are being exhorted not ever to hold a job, or to never speak to any other person, or... live our lives. Right? It means that even when you are not explicitly praying to God, live your life in prayer, as a prayer, constantly trusting in the Lord to provide. It's a figurative thing, an exhortation to constant spirituality... walking in the Spirit. So one could say that Jesus did this perfectly, that He was praying -- again, figuratively and spiritually -- all the time and never stopped.

Grace and

[myth-one.com]

You ask the question, "did He pray before He calmed the sea?" Then you answer the question: No. Please provide the proof for your answer, or retract it. Thanks.

Well the burden of proof is really on you, myth-one. Prove to me that He did (pray before He calmed the sea). Good luck with that...

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

Is that how it works?

You claim that Jesus did not pray before He calmed the sea.

Your "proof" that He did not pray is that there is no evidence that He did pray?
===============================================

Can we both agree that calming the sea is not something that humans naturally have the ability to do instantly?

If so, then calming the sea would be a supernatural event.

Where supernatural means beyond the power of natural beings.

But the Bible clearly describes Jesus as a natural bodied man.

That being the case, the only way He could calm the sea was with help from God the Father.

That would insert the concept of prayer preceeding the event!

It was simply not reported over and over prior to every miracle.

[Tcg]

You ask the question, "did He pray before He calmed the sea?" Then you answer the question: No. Please provide the proof for your answer, or retract it. Thanks.

Well the burden of proof is really on you, myth-one. Prove to me that He did (pray before He calmed the sea). Good luck with that...

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

Is that how it works?

You claim that Jesus did not pray before He calmed the sea.

Your "proof" that He did not pray is that there is no evidence that He did pray?
===============================================

Can we both agree that calming the sea is not something that humans naturally have the ability to do instantly?

If so, then calming the sea would be a supernatural event.

Where supernatural means beyond the power of natural beings.

But the Bible clearly describes Jesus as a natural bodied man.

That being the case, the only way He could calm the sea was with help from God the Father.

That would insert the concept of prayer preceeding the event!

It was simply not reported over and over prior to every miracle.

This goes too far the other way. Given that the Bible doesn't mention Jesus praying it is possible that he didn't. If we are to base our conclusions on that which the Bible teaches, we must admit this the Bible doesn't settle this matter. Jesus may or may not have prayed before this event. The fact that the Bible remains silent on this issue means we can't draw a conclusion one way or the other. At least not if the Bible is our guide.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

You ask the question, "did He pray before He calmed the sea?" Then you answer the question: No. Please provide the proof for your answer, or retract it. Thanks.

Well the burden of proof is really on you, myth-one. Prove to me that He did (pray before He calmed the sea). Good luck with that...
Grace and peace to you, my friend.

Is that how it works?

Yes. Yes, it is. This is called debate. That's exactly how it works.

You claim that Jesus did not pray before He calmed the sea. Your "proof" that He did not pray is that there is no evidence that He did pray?

No, I'm merely stating that there is evidence -- ample evidence -- that indicates that he did not always pray before doing these supernatural things. Concerning this particular event (calming the sea), we know -- because it is explicit -- that he went to sleep in the boat before the storm arose. The disciples woke Him up after the storm arose (because they were very frightened of dying), and then at that point, Jesus calmed the sea (after admonishing them, of course):

• "Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him, saying, 'Lord, save us! Were going to drown!' " (Matthew 8:23-26)

If Jesus had stopped and taken time to actually pray to the Father -- which, mind you, sure, He could have done if He so chose -- then I feel very confident in saying that Matthew would have recorded that, especially in view of the fact that he does so in other instances. He did not pray. There are other events, as I said, that follow the same pattern. Ergo, He did not always pray before doing these things.

Can we both agree that calming the sea is not something that humans naturally have the ability to do instantly?

Absolutely.

...calming the sea would be a supernatural event.

Absolutely.

Where supernatural means beyond the power of natural beings.

Yes, I know what it means. I think (hope) we all do...

But the Bible clearly describes Jesus as a natural bodied man.

Ah! And that He was (and is), but logically, He must therefore be -- in the words of Dr. Seuss concerning what the Grinch came to realize about the meaning of Christmas -- "a little bit more" (than a mere human male).

That being the case, the only way He could calm the sea was with help from God the Father.

Nope. See above.

That would insert the concept of prayer preceeding the event.

He did not pray.

It was simply not reported over and over prior to every miracle.

There is nothing to stand on in any way, solid or otherwise, in making that assertion and/or coming to that conclusion, myth-one. Nothing. Tcg is right. This is too far the other way.

Grace and peace to you, my opinionated, speculative friend. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being opinionated or speculative, but making those out to be indisputable facts should not be done. But you're certainly your own person. Again, grace and peace to you in the name of Christ.