The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

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The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Christian clergy and apologists claim that "All the Apostles died instead of recanting their belief in the Resurrection."

Josh McDowell ("More Than A Carpenter, Evidence Demands a Verdict") says,
Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true.
Josh McDowell.

This is a demonstrable lie.

Sean McDowell, son of Josh McDowell, says:
If you have followed popular–level arguments for the resurrection (or ever heard a sermon on the apostles), you’ve likely heard this argument. Growing up I heard it regularly and found it quite convincing. After all, why would the apostles of Jesus have died for their faith if it weren’t true?

Yet the question was always in the back of my mind — how do we really know they died as martyrs?
(Note, he was told that lie by his father.)

The claim that all of Jesus' disciples were killed for their unwavering belief in the resurrection is a popular and often-repeated narrative. However, this claim is not entirely accurate and is based on a limited understanding of the available historical evidence.

Firstly, it is important to note that the historical record of the disciples' deaths is sparse and often unreliable. Many of the accounts of the disciples' deaths were written years or even centuries after the events they describe, and some of them contain obvious embellishments and inaccuracies.

Furthermore, there is significant debate among historians about the veracity of these accounts. Some historians argue that the disciples' deaths are well-documented and reliable, while others argue that the available evidence is too thin and contradictory to draw any definitive conclusions.

Even assuming that the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, it is not clear that they were all killed specifically because of their belief in the resurrection. Many of the disciples lived and died in relative obscurity, and there is little or no historical record of how or why they died.

For example, we know almost nothing about the deaths of most of the disciples, including James the Less, Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot. The accounts of the deaths of Peter and Paul are somewhat more reliable, but they provide no evidence that these disciples were specifically targeted for their belief in the resurrection.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many religious figures throughout history have been persecuted and even killed for their beliefs. The fact that the disciples were killed for their beliefs does not necessarily make those beliefs true, nor does it provide any evidence for the resurrection itself.

In conclusion, while it is certainly possible that some or all of the disciples were killed for their beliefs, it is far from clear that this is the case. Furthermore, even if the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, they do not provide any evidence for the resurrection itself. Therefore, the claim that the disciples were all killed for their belief in the resurrection is a problematic and oversimplified narrative that should be approached with caution.

1. To what extent do the deaths of the apostles prove the veracity of the resurrection story?
2. Can we trust the accounts of the apostles' deaths as historically accurate, or are they subject to bias and myth-making?
3. Is it possible for someone to be so convinced of a belief that they are willing to die for it, even if the belief is not true?
4. How do we reconcile the apostles' willingness to die for their belief in the resurrection with similar accounts of martyrs in other religions?
5. Do contemporary Christians have a responsibility to question the historical accuracy of their religious texts and teachings, or is faith sufficient?
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #9]

What you say is ok, but was never the actual rebuttal. The point always was a claim that the disciples saw the resurrection and would not unsay that no matter the threat. The rebuttal is that there is absolutely no reason to suppose that even happened. Never mind the tall tales of the early church martyrdoms, but consider the the records of the apostles. Apart from James Boanerges, there is no reason to suppose that the disciples refused to recant the resurrection. If there is, produce it.

Rather the account of Matthew suggests that the Jews knew that Jesus' body had been taken away. Thus it had not risen. That is the only Gospel comment about any claim other than the demonstrably contradictory walking corpse claims.

To labour the point, Josh McDowell and the others who peddle the 'would not die for a lie' claim are basing the argument on a claim that has virtually no evidence to support it. To give your reasonable - sounding post full credit, if you can make a decent evidential case for the disciples even toughing out threats rather than recant the resurrection, please produce it and confound me.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #12

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:10 pmI loved this: " the evidence for the claim"

Can you give evidence for the claim?

Also, if I gave you examples of people recanting their faith - what then?

"Now, of course, this alone doesn’t prove the resurrection is true, but it is a piece one must take into consideration."
So, what does make the resurrection true?
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:12 pmWhat you say is ok, but was never the actual rebuttal. The point always was a claim that the disciples saw the resurrection and would not unsay that no matter the threat. The rebuttal is that there is absolutely no reason to suppose that even happened. Never mind the tall tales of the early church martyrdoms, but consider the the records of the apostles. Apart from James Boanerges, there is no reason to suppose that the disciples refused to recant the resurrection. If there is, produce it.
My claim in this thread is that the theory that the apostles’ lied is weakened by the lack of any recantations in the face of known persecution. If they lied about it we should expect evidence of recantations, but no such evidence exists. The burden is on the apostles’ lied theory to produce evidence that they lied, not just speculation that they could have lied or switch to other claims or critiques.

The lack of recantations, in the face of known persecution, also fits with the resurrection theory, putting a mark in that theory’s favor when compared against this ‘apostles’ lied’ theory. But there is much more to look at when comparing these theories, as well as other ones. It’s just not what I’m addressing in this thread.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #13

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:23 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:10 pmI loved this: " the evidence for the claim"

Can you give evidence for the claim?

Also, if I gave you examples of people recanting their faith - what then?

"Now, of course, this alone doesn’t prove the resurrection is true, but it is a piece one must take into consideration."
So, what does make the resurrection true?
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:12 pmWhat you say is ok, but was never the actual rebuttal. The point always was a claim that the disciples saw the resurrection and would not unsay that no matter the threat. The rebuttal is that there is absolutely no reason to suppose that even happened. Never mind the tall tales of the early church martyrdoms, but consider the the records of the apostles. Apart from James Boanerges, there is no reason to suppose that the disciples refused to recant the resurrection. If there is, produce it.
My claim in this thread is that the theory that the apostles’ lied is weakened by the lack of any recantations in the face of known persecution. If they lied about it we should expect evidence of recantations, but no such evidence exists. The burden is on the apostles’ lied theory to produce evidence that they lied, not just speculation that they could have lied or switch to other claims or critiques.

The lack of recantations, in the face of known persecution, also fits with the resurrection theory, putting a mark in that theory’s favor when compared against this ‘apostles’ lied’ theory. But there is much more to look at when comparing these theories, as well as other ones. It’s just not what I’m addressing in this thread.
No, no, no, That is not the argument. It is what the Bible apologists would like the argument to be - either the 12 (or 11, rather) saw the death on the cross (1) and Jesus alive afterwards and were so sure that Jesus had risen that they suffered death rather than deny it, or they lied about the whole thing and maintained the lie even through martyrdom (which would be hard to believe).

No. The problem is that there is no valid evidence that the disciples were put on any such spot and maintained the resurrection in the face of threats. The burden of proof has been pushed back to the Believers to show that the claim that the disciples died rather than recant is actually true.

I was anticipating 'known persecution', but that is not the same thing. Jesus was not executed because he said he'd seen someone resurrected. He was executed either because he threatened the authority of the 'teachers of the law' or of the Romans, or both. That is why the disciples were 'persecuted', not because they maintained the resurrection. Burden of proof is on you to show that is what the 'persecution' was about.

cue 'Paul beaten three times for preaching Christ crucified'. But as I recall, it was 'the Jews' doing that, because Paul was preaching against the Mosaic law, not because of preaching resurrection, aside that it was the Gospel resurrection Paul was preaching at all, but the resurrection of Jesus' spirit. But we'll see where we go on that.

(1) which they didn't - they didn't even watch the crucifixion.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #14

Post by The Tanager »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:49 amNo, no, no, That is not the argument. It is what the Bible apologists would like the argument to be - either the 12 (or 11, rather) saw the death on the cross (1) and Jesus alive afterwards and were so sure that Jesus had risen that they suffered death rather than deny it, or they lied about the whole thing and maintained the lie even through martyrdom (which would be hard to believe).

No. The problem is that there is no valid evidence that the disciples were put on any such spot and maintained the resurrection in the face of threats. The burden of proof has been pushed back to the Believers to show that the claim that the disciples died rather than recant is actually true.

I was anticipating 'known persecution', but that is not the same thing. Jesus was not executed because he said he'd seen someone resurrected. He was executed either because he threatened the authority of the 'teachers of the law' or of the Romans, or both. That is why the disciples were 'persecuted', not because they maintained the resurrection. Burden of proof is on you to show that is what the 'persecution' was about.

cue 'Paul beaten three times for preaching Christ crucified'. But as I recall, it was 'the Jews' doing that, because Paul was preaching against the Mosaic law, not because of preaching resurrection, aside that it was the Gospel resurrection Paul was preaching at all, but the resurrection of Jesus' spirit. But we'll see where we go on that.

(1) which they didn't - they didn't even watch the crucifixion.
No, the Christian argument is what Christians actually argue. Some Christians argue about death. I (and other Christians) think that argument is not well supported (which, of course, doesn't mean they didn't die for their faith, it's just that we don't have good evidence they did). I (and other Christians) think that claims of dying for a lie aren't even needed, but that not recanting in the face of persecution supports the resurrection theory by being a strong mark against the "apostles' lied" theory. We know the earliest Christians were persecuted (by Jews and then Romans later). The Jewish persecution would obviously center on Jesus as the Messiah, which the earliest Christians clearly and centrally preached as risen, so recantation would involve recanting that Jesus' rose from the dead. We know the message was still spread in spite of that. We have no evidence of recantations, which we would expect. You'd expect to have Christians writing about the apostles who betrayed them by recanting. We don't have any evidence of that. Thus, the "apostles' lied" theory is weakened.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #15

Post by 1213 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:52 pm ...
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
I wait first proof that they have lied.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #16

Post by boatsnguitars »

[Replying to 1213 in post #15]
Are you not aware of the clergy lying?

Have you never heard of the pious fraud?

Do you really believe the clergy believed in all the relics they displayed?

Was Jesus born on Dec 25th?

Did Peter write 2 Peter? Are the gospels written by their namesakes?

https://rolltodisbelieve.com/spreading- ... n-and-now/

https://vridar.org/2011/10/03/explainin ... e-gospels/

Look it up on your own. Just because you don't believe they lie, doesn't mean they don't.
Last edited by boatsnguitars on Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #17

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:24 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:49 amNo, no, no, That is not the argument. It is what the Bible apologists would like the argument to be - either the 12 (or 11, rather) saw the death on the cross (1) and Jesus alive afterwards and were so sure that Jesus had risen that they suffered death rather than deny it, or they lied about the whole thing and maintained the lie even through martyrdom (which would be hard to believe).

No. The problem is that there is no valid evidence that the disciples were put on any such spot and maintained the resurrection in the face of threats. The burden of proof has been pushed back to the Believers to show that the claim that the disciples died rather than recant is actually true.

I was anticipating 'known persecution', but that is not the same thing. Jesus was not executed because he said he'd seen someone resurrected. He was executed either because he threatened the authority of the 'teachers of the law' or of the Romans, or both. That is why the disciples were 'persecuted', not because they maintained the resurrection. Burden of proof is on you to show that is what the 'persecution' was about.

cue 'Paul beaten three times for preaching Christ crucified'. But as I recall, it was 'the Jews' doing that, because Paul was preaching against the Mosaic law, not because of preaching resurrection, aside that it was the Gospel resurrection Paul was preaching at all, but the resurrection of Jesus' spirit. But we'll see where we go on that.

(1) which they didn't - they didn't even watch the crucifixion.
No, the Christian argument is what Christians actually argue. Some Christians argue about death. I (and other Christians) think that argument is not well supported (which, of course, doesn't mean they didn't die for their faith, it's just that we don't have good evidence they did). I (and other Christians) think that claims of dying for a lie aren't even needed, but that not recanting in the face of persecution supports the resurrection theory by being a strong mark against the "apostles' lied" theory. We know the earliest Christians were persecuted (by Jews and then Romans later). The Jewish persecution would obviously center on Jesus as the Messiah, which the earliest Christians clearly and centrally preached as risen, so recantation would involve recanting that Jesus' rose from the dead. We know the message was still spread in spite of that. We have no evidence of recantations, which we would expect. You'd expect to have Christians writing about the apostles who betrayed them by recanting. We don't have any evidence of that. Thus, the "apostles' lied" theory is weakened.
Shifting the goalposts doesn't help your case. It is true that we have no evidence of disciples recanting anything, but what evidence do you have that pressure was being put on them to deny the resurrection? Not even James the greater is described as having Herod Agrippa put the sword to his throat and "Deny the resurrection or else". Aside that I don't trust Acts, we don't know the reason Herod Agrippa supposedly killed him. You sidestep my counter that it may all be because of a threat to authority, not about a resurrection - claim that frankly the Roman governors and the Jews would hardly care about at the time by insisting that the persecution was about Jesus' messiahship and that based on the resurrection and THAT based on assuming that was a solid body resurrection. That's three assumptions that you make and I'd like to know where you validate that.

Paul says he persecuted the church. He doesn't say why. He says the Jews persecuted him. That was as likely to be because he preached against Jewish Law, rather than resurrection - claims which I doubt they cared about. I have to say that the motivations in the gospels are denied by me because I can show the gospels were written by Christians and non -Jewish ones on the evidence, not even by converted Jews. They are not in fact, evidence that the persecution of the disciples (which Paul confirms) was because they would not deny that they saw Jesus' body walking after they had seen him die, which in fact they did not according to the gospels. They were in hiding.

Cue: 'What other explanation for the empty tomb?'

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #18

Post by TRANSPONDER »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:23 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #15]
Are you not aware of the clergy lying?

Have you never heard of the pious fraud?

Do you really believe the clergy believed in all the relics they displayed?

Was Jesus born on Dec 25th?

Did Peter write 2 Peter? Are the gospels written by their namesakes?

https://rolltodisbelieve.com/spreading- ... n-and-now/
Can we really believe that the Christian authorities of old who memorised the whole thing, chapter and verse numbers included, never noticed that John has no transfiguration, that the synoptics have never heard of the raising of Lazarus and Luke seems unaware that Jesus walked on water? Where does faithbased denial end and barefaced lying for Jesus begin?

Oh yes, a Pious Fraud I like is the true cross nail that Constantine's mum, called the patron saint of archaeology if you please, brought back and which looks like the sawn - off top of an iron railing, and I suspect is. After all, she was peddled the Sepulchre as Jesus' tomb when historically, It can't be. And they are still peddling it (and the other one) to the deluded faithful today. Pious fraud is alive and well and making millions.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #19

Post by The Tanager »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:33 pmShifting the goalposts doesn't help your case.
I’m not shifting the goalposts; I didn’t change any rule or criterion from my initial claim.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:33 pm It is true that we have no evidence of disciples recanting anything, but what evidence do you have that pressure was being put on them to deny the resurrection? Not even James the greater is described as having Herod Agrippa put the sword to his throat and "Deny the resurrection or else". Aside that I don't trust Acts, we don't know the reason Herod Agrippa supposedly killed him. You sidestep my counter that it may all be because of a threat to authority, not about a resurrection - claim that frankly the Roman governors and the Jews would hardly care about at the time by insisting that the persecution was about Jesus' messiahship and that based on the resurrection and THAT based on assuming that was a solid body resurrection. That's three assumptions that you make and I'd like to know where you validate that.
That you don’t trust Acts is noted, but irrelevant. The earliest Christians’ message was all about Jesus’ resurrection. If people felt their authority challenged, it was because of that message, so supposing that it is just about challenging authority doesn’t escape that. Any recantation would go hand in hand with the centrality of the resurrection. The Romans wouldn’t care about the resurrection, but the Jewish leaders definitely did as the Christians claimed Jesus was the resurrected Messiah as the central claim of their movement. All early Christian documents, including Paul, speaks of a bodily resurrection.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #20

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:47 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:33 pmShifting the goalposts doesn't help your case.
I’m not shifting the goalposts; I didn’t change any rule or criterion from my initial claim.
You are, because it's not about you and what claim you are making but about 'the disciples did not die for a lie. If YOU say that they didn't die (were martyred) you are shifting your goalpopsts from the Christian claim, as well as from what I was answering.

Ok, if you accept that you have shifted the arguments of 'die for a lie' to 'persecuted for a lie' then we can discuss that more than we have but it was Not what the original general Bible apologetic was saying. So don't go pretending it wasn't the actual Bible apologetic claim, whether it was yours or not, and making out that I'm the one shifting position wrongly.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:33 pm It is true that we have no evidence of disciples recanting anything, but what evidence do you have that pressure was being put on them to deny the resurrection? Not even James the greater is described as having Herod Agrippa put the sword to his throat and "Deny the resurrection or else". Aside that I don't trust Acts, we don't know the reason Herod Agrippa supposedly killed him. You sidestep my counter that it may all be because of a threat to authority, not about a resurrection - claim that frankly the Roman governors and the Jews would hardly care about at the time by insisting that the persecution was about Jesus' messiahship and that based on the resurrection and THAT based on assuming that was a solid body resurrection. That's three assumptions that you make and I'd like to know where you validate that.
That you don’t trust Acts is noted, but irrelevant. The earliest Christians’ message was all about Jesus’ resurrection. If people felt their authority challenged, it was because of that message, so supposing that it is just about challenging authority doesn’t escape that. Any recantation would go hand in hand with the centrality of the resurrection. The Romans wouldn’t care about the resurrection, but the Jewish leaders definitely did as the Christians claimed Jesus was the resurrected Messiah as the central claim of their movement. All early Christian documents, including Paul, speaks of a bodily resurrection.
No, that is the Christian claim, the apologetic viewpoint and what you say, but where is the evidence outside Bibleclaims that the disciples were persecuted (or martyred) because they would not deny that they had seen Jesus walking about after they had seen him dead? Remember the gospels themselves make it clear that they never saw him die. So you are beaten already. But what can you even say rather than Christian dogma to show for what reason the disciples were persecuted? There is the reason why they persecuted Jesus - not because he had risen from the dead, but because he had challenged the authority of the priests and Rabbis. There's the prime reason, even before we get to Christian polemical; propaganda That it is now a central dogma means squat to the reason why they were persecuted then, aside from do we now assume that you give up on trying to show that the the disciples died for the resurrection - claim. lie or not, or are you going to return to proving that later on? I shan't let it slip, you may depend on that ;) . Off you go, as they say in court. :)

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