It's a fair question to ask how a perfect Being, Omni in every (Good) way, and has all the attributes Theists claim simply happened to exist. The odds of this happening must be staggering.
In fact, imagine how a God - let's say God A - is exactly like OmniGod, but with one ounce of difference in their - oh, let's say sense of beauty. It's 99.999999999% perfect in establishing the objective measure of beauty, but not quite perfect. Would we know? Would we care? What if it was only 60% perfect?
What if anyone of it's attributes were less than 100% - would we know?
Then there are an infinite number of Gods: GodB, GodC.... each with just a little difference. - Yet, Theists can't know which, or explain how they would know if, say, God is Perfect in every way (which is problematic), or just really nice in a few ways that make us Apes very impressed.
I think Theists simply claim God is Perfect, and they try to convince us with an argument that goes: If you can imagine it, it's true. (Ontological Argument)
So, a couple things for Theists to ponder:
1. How do you explain the simple happenstance that a Perfect Being simply exists in it's Perfect, Full Form just as a matter of fact?
2. How do you know God is perfect? (No, claiming the Bible says it doesn't count)
3. How do you know - since God is timeless - that we aren't in the beginning stages of a God being developed. 15 billion years would be a mere blip in time for God, so how do we know we aren't part of God's Evolution? (After all, we have evidence that Evolution exists - not that Beings simply always existed.)
4. How is the answer "God is eternal and doesn't need an explanation" sufficient, but not the same answer for the Big Bang under atheism?
Who Made God?
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Who Made God?
Post #1“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #51[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #50]
Science is a process. Correctly "scientists" do the discovering.science did discover it
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #52Yes, and they haven't discovered much of anything metaphysicians have proposed. The fact that you cherry pick a few examples (poor ones, too) is drawing the target after you shot the arrow.William wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:57 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #50]
Science is a process. Correctly "scientists" do the discovering.science did discover it
Let's not, for a moment, think that metaphysicians are an important, critical, robust, etc. part of the scientific process. The questions they raise are not unavailable to scientists. and in most respects they are trying to figure out things like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #53[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #52]
It was your initial comment which created the "target" as it immediately reminded me of Quantum Mechanics and the mysteries that scientific process has unveiled.
It is incorrect use of Materialist Philosophy which "cherry-picks" and decidedly groups whatever is considered to be "non-scientific" as the ramblings of "idiots".
A metaphysician attempts to characterize causation itself. A physicist may investigate the origins of the universe and theorize about its fundamental laws; a metaphysician asks why the universe exists — and why its laws obtain the way they do.
Yep nothing therein suggesting the use of scientific process, although if your argument is that Metaphysicians do not consider whatever such process has revealed, you may be conflating religious believers and Metaphysicians as being one and the same.
I consider what Quantum Mechanics has revealed and interpret said findings as aligning with what Metaphysicians have hypothesized.
On the contrary.Yes, and they haven't discovered much of anything metaphysicians have proposed. The fact that you cherry pick a few examples (poor ones, too) is drawing the target after you shot the arrow.
It was your initial comment which created the "target" as it immediately reminded me of Quantum Mechanics and the mysteries that scientific process has unveiled.
It is incorrect use of Materialist Philosophy which "cherry-picks" and decidedly groups whatever is considered to be "non-scientific" as the ramblings of "idiots".
What is the job of a Metaphysician?Let's not, for a moment, think that metaphysicians are an important, critical, robust, etc. part of the scientific process.
A metaphysician attempts to characterize causation itself. A physicist may investigate the origins of the universe and theorize about its fundamental laws; a metaphysician asks why the universe exists — and why its laws obtain the way they do.
Yep nothing therein suggesting the use of scientific process, although if your argument is that Metaphysicians do not consider whatever such process has revealed, you may be conflating religious believers and Metaphysicians as being one and the same.
I consider what Quantum Mechanics has revealed and interpret said findings as aligning with what Metaphysicians have hypothesized.
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #54William wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 1:22 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #52]
On the contrary.Yes, and they haven't discovered much of anything metaphysicians have proposed. The fact that you cherry pick a few examples (poor ones, too) is drawing the target after you shot the arrow.
It was your initial comment which created the "target" as it immediately reminded me of Quantum Mechanics and the mysteries that scientific process has unveiled.
It is incorrect use of Materialist Philosophy which "cherry-picks" and decidedly groups whatever is considered to be "non-scientific" as the ramblings of "idiots".
What is the job of a Metaphysician?Let's not, for a moment, think that metaphysicians are an important, critical, robust, etc. part of the scientific process.
A metaphysician attempts to characterize causation itself. A physicist may investigate the origins of the universe and theorize about its fundamental laws; a metaphysician asks why the universe exists — and why its laws obtain the way they do.
Yep nothing therein suggesting the use of scientific process, although if your argument is that Metaphysicians do not consider whatever such process has revealed, you may be conflating religious believers and Metaphysicians as being one and the same.
I consider what Quantum Mechanics has revealed and interpret said findings as aligning with what Metaphysicians have hypothesized.
Not really much of a study if you don't even know what it is. And, I'll find the quote about how science really doesn't care what metaphysicians think about causation.5. Is Metaphysics Possible?
It may also be that there is no internal unity to metaphysics. More strongly, perhaps there is no such thing as metaphysics—or at least nothing that deserves to be called a science or a study or a discipline. Perhaps, as some philosophers have proposed, no metaphysical statement or theory is either true or false. Or perhaps, as others have proposed, metaphysical theories have truth-values, but it is impossible to find out what they are. At least since the time of Hume, there have been philosophers who have proposed that metaphysics is “impossible”—either because its questions are meaningless or because they are impossible to answer. The remainder of this entry will be a discussion of some recent arguments for the impossibility of metaphysics.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #55[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #47]
So, you’ve chosen and shared your position on these debated subjects, declaring such things need not be talked about. Even though you previously spoke against doing that kind of philosophy. Looks like you are in a fix. When you get out of it, I’ll be here waiting to have a rational conversation.
So, you’ve chosen and shared your position on these debated subjects, declaring such things need not be talked about. Even though you previously spoke against doing that kind of philosophy. Looks like you are in a fix. When you get out of it, I’ll be here waiting to have a rational conversation.
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #56You are claiming that God became human, died, rose, will return with swords flying from his mouth to judge the quick and dead.... and you want to have a rational conversation? I think not.The Tanager wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:25 am [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #47]
So, you’ve chosen and shared your position on these debated subjects, declaring such things need not be talked about. Even though you previously spoke against doing that kind of philosophy. Looks like you are in a fix. When you get out of it, I’ll be here waiting to have a rational conversation.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #58Stanford Plato siteWilliam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #54]
Who are you quoting here?5. Is Metaphysics Possible?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
- William
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #59And what do you to say about it? (what was the purpose of you quoting it?)boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:23 amStanford Plato siteWilliam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #54]
Who are you quoting here?5. Is Metaphysics Possible?
________-
Re this Bandwagon Fallacy;
Scientists. (Science itself is non-sentient and cannot "care" or not about anything.)I'll find the quote about how science really doesn't care what metaphysicians think about causation.
Because a large number of scientists are outwardly materialists, it is no wonder most findings are explained through the materialist philosophy and popular consensus formed.
So what?
Does the question "Who Made God" qualify as a metaphysic one?
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Re: Who Made God?
Post #60It's a scientific question. How does something simply exist, perfectly for all eternity, and then decide and infinity into that "time" to do something, but then uses time-based methods (Evolution) or time-based reality to express it's thoughts, or how does non-life make life? How does supernatural make natural?William wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:25 pmAnd what do you to say about it? (what was the purpose of you quoting it?)boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:23 amStanford Plato siteWilliam wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #54]
Who are you quoting here?5. Is Metaphysics Possible?
________-
Re this Bandwagon Fallacy;Scientists. (Science itself is non-sentient and cannot "care" or not about anything.)I'll find the quote about how science really doesn't care what metaphysicians think about causation.
Because a large number of scientists are outwardly materialists, it is no wonder most findings are explained through the materialist philosophy and popular consensus formed.
So what?
Does the question "Who Made God" qualify as a metaphysic one?
I want scientific answers, not dreamland, story-time fairy tales: aka, metaphysics.
I know it can't be answered scientifically (because God doesn't exist), so instead theists will hem and haw, using metaphysics as smoke screen.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm