Does the Bible contradict itself?

[Difflugia]

there cannot be any contradiction

And yet there are.

You need to prove that.

OK. At most two of the following three can be true:

• The Bible is inerrant.
• Ecclesiastes 9:25—"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. They also have no more reward, because the memory of them is forgotten."
• 1 Samuel 28:15—"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The common Witness apologetic tack is to claim that the biblical narrator is wrong and it's not really Samuel that "said" this thing to Saul. In fact, the NWT puts scare quotes around Samuel's name wherever we see it in the story:



This kind of apologetic trick is fine if we're allowed to believe that the biblical narrator is wrong, but this is TD&D, where the entire Bible must be treated as authoritative. With that in mind, here's the question for debate:

Can Ecclesiastes 9 and 1 Samuel 28 be harmonized if both must be inerrant and authoritative? Or do they contradict such that one or the other must be changed?

[John17_3]

there cannot be any contradiction

And yet there are.

You need to prove that.

OK. At most two of the following three can be true:

• The Bible is inerrant.
• Ecclesiastes 9:25—"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. They also have no more reward, because the memory of them is forgotten."
• 1 Samuel 28:15—"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The common Witness apologetic tack is to claim that the biblical narrator is wrong and it's not really Samuel that "said" this thing to Saul. In fact, the NWT puts scare quotes around Samuel's name wherever we see it in the story:



This kind of apologetic trick is fine if we're allowed to believe that the biblical narrator is wrong, but this is TD&D, where the entire Bible must be treated as authoritative. With that in mind, here's the question for debate:

Can Ecclesiastes 9 and 1 Samuel 28 be harmonized if both must be inerrant and authoritative? Or do they contradict such that one or the other must be changed?

Thank you for the thread.
The Bible says Samuel died, and was buried. 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Samuel 28:3
Do you agree, with this, or disagree?

[Difflugia]

The Bible says Samuel died, and was buried. 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Samuel 28:3
Do you agree, with this, or disagree?

For the purposes of this discussion, if the Bible says it, it's authoritative and true.

And Samuel died; and all Israel gathered themselves together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah.

Samuel died and was buried. I agree that's what 1 Samuel 25:1 says.

As a quick followup, since this will become important shortly, who is saying this? Who is telling us that Samuel died and was buried?

[John17_3]

The Bible says Samuel died, and was buried. 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Samuel 28:3
Do you agree, with this, or disagree?

For the purposes of this discussion, if the Bible says it, it's authoritative and true.

And Samuel died; and all Israel gathered themselves together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah.

Samuel died and was buried. I agree that's what 1 Samuel 25:1 says.

As a quick followup, since this will become important shortly, who is saying this? Who is telling us that Samuel died and was buried?

2 Timothy 3:16, answers, that God, is telling us, through his inspired prophets. 2 Peter 1:21

These scriptures all agree on what it mean to die. Psalm 146:4; Genesis 3:19; Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Do you agree with all these scriptures, that those who die, their spirit goes out, they return to the dust, and their thoughts are gone?

If you do not agree, please define death, and provide the source for your definition. Thanks.

[Difflugia]

2 Timothy 3:16, answers, that God, is telling us, through his inspired prophets. 2 Peter 1:21

That's a bit more than what either of those verses is saying, but I've no problem with that in any case. Is the biblical narrator a prophet by definition, then, at least as you read the combination of the two verses you referenced?

These scriptures all agree on what it mean to die. Psalm 146:4; Genesis 3:19; Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Do you agree with all these scriptures, that those who die, their spirit goes out, they return to the dust, and their thoughts are gone?

To accelerate some of the inevitable socratic nonsense, let's just say that I'm willing to agree with every single one of those. Because I also agree with 1 Samuel 28:15, however, when the biblical narrator tells us that Samuel spoke to Saul after his death, there is a contradiction.

So we have, according to the "prophet" that wrote the Psalm, a man whose thoughts perished on the very day of his death. We also have, according to the "prophet" that wrote 1 Samuel 28, that same man speaking to Saul.

Which of those prophets is wrong?

[John17_3]

2 Timothy 3:16, answers, that God, is telling us, through his inspired prophets. 2 Peter 1:21

That's a bit more than what either of those verses is saying, but I've no problem with that in any case. Is the biblical narrator a prophet by definition, then, at least as you read the combination of the two verses you referenced?

These scriptures all agree on what it mean to die. Psalm 146:4; Genesis 3:19; Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Do you agree with all these scriptures, that those who die, their spirit goes out, they return to the dust, and their thoughts are gone?

To accelerate some of the inevitable socratic nonsense, let's just say that I'm willing to agree with every single one of those. Because I also agree with 1 Samuel 28:15, however, when the biblical narrator tells us that Samuel spoke to Saul after his death, there is a contradiction.

There is no contradiction in scripture, but there is a contradiction in your what you said.
To say that one believes "all scripture is inspired of God", and that he spoke through these me, and then to say that God contradicts himself, is a contradiction.

So we have, according to the "prophet" that wrote the Psalm, a man whose thoughts perished on the very day of his death. We also have, according to the "prophet" that wrote 1 Samuel 28, that same man speaking to Saul.

Which of those prophets is wrong?

If you believe what God says about death, then you would not believe the opposite.
It's either one or the other. It cannot be both, otherwise, you contradict yourself.
The contradiction is not with scripture.

God clearly states what death is, so when you read 1 Samuel 28:6-25, you should not discard what God says about death, but rather, understand the text, in line with what God says about death.
What we know, in addition to the state of the dead, is

1. When Saul inquired of God, God did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.
   • Samuels was a prophet - a dead prophet. So God did not answer Saul.
2. Saul disguised himself, and went to a witch, and said to her. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
   • The woman contacted a spirit - a demon - who "brought up the one Saul wanted".
3. 1 Samuel 28:12-14 tells us, "When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice and said to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
   Saul asked, her, “What did you see?”
   At which she replied, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
   Saul said to her, “What is his form?”
   The witch said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.”
   • Saul took the woman's words, and swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker, that it was Samuel.
     It was not Samuel. It was, as the Bible said, a spirit - the same spirit Saul asked the woman to consult.
4. Verse 15, says, Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
   • Samuel, obviously is in quotations, because this is a spirit that only the woman can see. It is not Samuel. Why is the fully dressed spirit only visible to a woman that communicates with demons, and conjures up wicked spirits?
     That question is not hard to answer.
   A good author, and we know many of them, use this same method, of using a name of a person that is believed to be present, though impersonated.
   If you are a person, who like me, did a lot of reading in novels, you would see this.
   The Bible writer, here did that, centuries before we employed the method.

We cannot ignore the facts.
A who does what you are doing, opens themselves to deception, and delusion, because that person will believe anything, even when it contradicts known facts.

[Difflugia]

There is no contradiction in scripture, but there is a contradiction in your what you said.
To say that one believes "all scripture is inspired of God", and that he spoke through these me, and then to say that God contradicts himself, is a contradiction.

No, you're reading too much into 2 Timothy 3:16. Scripture being inspired doesn't mean that it's inerrant, particularly in historical details.

If each author is inspired, then God presumably wants you to read what each author wrote instead of you telling the Bible what it can't be. The psalmist and eccleastical teacher ("Qoheleth") are telling us that death is the end of life and experience. The Deuteronomist, however, is telling us that Saul spoke with the late prophet Samuel.

If you believe what God says about death, then you would not believe the opposite.
It's either one or the other. It cannot be both, otherwise, you contradict yourself.

Exactly. Yet the Bible says that Samuel spoke to Saul after his death.

The contradiction is not with scripture.

I'd actually agree with you. The contradiction only exists if your exegetical method requires Protestant standards of inerrancy. If death sometimes isn't the end of consciousness or the story of Saul and the necromancer is theological fiction, then there's no contradiction. All we can know is that if the verses are inspired, then God wants you to read and understand them as they are.

God clearly states what death is, so when you read 1 Samuel 28:6-25, you should not discard what God says about death, but rather, understand the text, in line with what God says about death.

And at the same time, you mustn't discard what God has told you about Samuel. God told you in so many words that the dead man Samuel spoke to Saul.

When Saul inquired of God, God did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.

• Samuels was a prophet - a dead prophet. So God did not answer Saul.

Before that verse, God hadn't answered Saul. It doesn't say that He wouldn't do so in the future, especially since the narrator later says that He did through Samuel!

Saul disguised himself, and went to a witch, and said to her. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

• The woman contacted a spirit - a demon - who "brought up the one Saul wanted".

You're starting to change the story to suit yourself. According to the inspired text, the woman brought up Samuel herself ("Whom shall I bring up for you?"). She contacted one spirit: Samuel.

Saul took the woman's words, and swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker, that it was Samuel.
It was not Samuel. It was, as the Bible said, a spirit - the same spirit Saul asked the woman to consult.

The narrator, the one you told me was a prophet, told us times that it was Samuel. "And when the woman saw Samuel." Those aren't the words of the necromancer, but the words of the omniscient narrator. If those are the inspired words of a prophet, then it seems to me that God wants you to swallow them, hook, line, and sinker.

Verse 15, says, Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

• Samuel, obviously is in quotations, because this is a spirit that only the woman can see. It is not Samuel. Why is the fully dressed spirit only visible to a woman that communicates with demons, and conjures up wicked spirits?

You're the one that says they're demons and the spirits are wicked, not the Bible. The NWT translators added the scare quotes, not the prophetic author.

That question is not hard to answer.

You're making it harder to answer than it should be.

A good author, and we know many of them, use this same method, of using a name of a person that is believed to be present, though impersonated.
If you are a person, who like me, did a lot of reading in novels, you would see this.
The Bible writer, here did that, centuries before we employed the method.

If you did as much reading as you say you have, you'd also know that authors write to be understood. If you have to change the story to make it fit your own ideas of what it should say, you're not getting the story that the author is telling you.

Furthermore, the literary technique that you're talking about would involve a reveal at some point. There isn't one. If the prophetic author was honest and correct, then the speaker was Samuel the entire time.

We cannot ignore the facts.

I absolutely agree with you.

A who does what you are doing, opens themselves to deception, and delusion, because that person will believe anything, even when it contradicts known facts.

So, which biblical narrator is deceiving me?

You told me that the story is inspired and you told me that it was written by a prophet. It also includes the late Samuel speaking to Saul. Why God told us that story is an interesting question, but I think we should both agree that changing God's story is the wrong answer.

[1213]

...

• The Bible is inerrant.
• Ecclesiastes 9:25—"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. They also have no more reward, because the memory of them is forgotten."
• 1 Samuel 28:15—"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

...

Can Ecclesiastes 9 and 1 Samuel 28 be harmonized if both must be inerrant and authoritative? Or do they contradict such that one or the other must be changed?

The dead know nothing is true, I think. If Samuel spoke to Saul, how can he be called dead?

Also, by what I see, Ecclesiastes is a scripture that tells what the writer, apparently Solomon had experienced, and the story evolves to the end. I don't think one should make too far fetching conclusions from the middle of the journey.

[Bible_Student]

there cannot be any contradiction

And yet there are.

You need to prove that.

OK. At most two of the following three can be true:

• The Bible is inerrant.
• —"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. They also have no more reward, because the memory of them is forgotten."
• —"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The common Witness apologetic tack is to claim that the biblical narrator is wrong and it's not really Samuel that "said" this thing to Saul. In fact, the NWT puts scare quotes around Samuel's name wherever we see it in the story:



This kind of apologetic trick is fine if we're allowed to believe that the biblical narrator is wrong, but this is TD&D, where the entire Bible must be treated as authoritative. With that in mind, here's the question for debate:

Can Ecclesiastes 9 and 1 Samuel 28 be harmonized if both must be inerrant and authoritative? Or do they contradict such that one or the other must be changed?

The book of Samuel is traditionally attributed to Samuel, with contributions from the Nathan and Gad, though it's believed a later compiler added some details. Samuel, Nathan and Gad were prophets of Jehovah.

While many modern critics view the Bible as an intriguing book or more, it is fundamentally the story of Jehovah God's relationship with humanity through various stages. The book of Samuel is set against the emergence of the kingdoms in Israel, detailing how the early kings received Jehovah's guidance through the prophets.

Deuteronomy 18:9  “When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.”

Kings, prophets, and priests served as Jehovah's representatives to Israel. The Law of Moses outlined Jehovah's expectations since leading them out of Egypt, providing not just decrees but also truths to distinguish Israel from other nations.

Leviticus 20:26  You must be holy to me, because I, Jehovah, am holy, and I am setting you apart from the peoples to become mine.
27 “‘Any man or woman who acts as a spirit medium or is a fortune-teller should be put to death without fail. The people should stone them to death. Their own blood is upon them.’”

Consider this: When the prophet Nathan (or Gad) composed the account of 1 Samuel 28, do you think they claimed that the dead prophet Samuel truly spoke through the spirit medium?

And: Do you think that when later Israelites and Jews read 1 Sam. 28, they think that what is speaking through the medium is actually the dead prophet of Jehovah?

[Difflugia]

The dead know nothing is true, I think. If Samuel spoke to Saul, how can he be called dead?

That's a good question. Samuel isn't the only dead person in the Bible that returns to talk to the living, though. The stories of the Transfiguration in all three Synoptics include Moses and Elijah temporarily returning from the dead. If the dead are dead, why did the authors add that detail to the story?

Also, by what I see, Ecclesiastes is a scripture that tells what the writer, apparently Solomon had experienced, and the story evolves to the end. I don't think one should make too far fetching conclusions from the middle of the journey.

That is an excellent perspective.