The Definition of God

[Delphi]

God is often defined as having various extraordinary characteristics. Infinitely loving, all powerful, omniscient, the creator of the Universe, etc.

How can we know that this is indeed true? How can we verify such grandiose assertions? No greater claims could possibly be made!

Normally, we make definitions based on verifiable evidence and observation. For example, we define a giraffe as being a large four-legged grazing mammal with a long neck, hooves, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, and two eyes. We can rationally define a giraffe this way based on verifiable observation. We define a giraffe by going out and finding a giraffe, then defining it based on its attributes.

Yet somehow, God is defined in the opposite manner. We do not go out and find god and define it based on its attributes. Instead, we apply god's characteristics to him without ever observing god. Definitions seem to fabricated out of imagination. I find this extremely dubious.

It seems to me that we are applying these definitions to the concept of a god. We cannot verify nor falsify these attributes.

What is going on here?

[Difflugia]

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads: 'Your divine throne is everlasting.' The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.'" Scholars say that there could be two ways to translate the verse, but which is more probable? As I've tried to say, "God is your throne" is the most probable. The Hebrew Psalm would not call the king "God."

You keep saying this as though you've offered some evidence for your position, but you haven't. No matter how much you want this to be true, saying it again doesn't add any more weight to your argument or address the reasons for reading the text differently.

[onewithhim]

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads: 'Your divine throne is everlasting.' The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.'" Scholars say that there could be two ways to translate the verse, but which is more probable? As I've tried to say, "God is your throne" is the most probable. The Hebrew Psalm would not call the king "God."

You keep saying this as though you've offered some evidence for your position, but you haven't. No matter how much you want this to be true, saying it again doesn't add any more weight to your argument or address the reasons for reading the text differently.

It is your prerogative to think what you want, despite the evidence. I don't have to convince you of anything. I'm just stating the truth of matters. You can lead a horse to water.....

[Difflugia]

You can lead a horse to water.....

But you can't teach it Greek.

[Difflugia]

It is your prerogative to think what you want, despite the evidence.

You know what would be fun? If we checked an interlinear.



"Articular vocative; see ver. 10."

[Difflugia]

"O God"

[Capbook]

Would you accept the verse would be, "therefore God the Father, even thy God?
That statement above that you accept as correct. Is "therefore God the Father" is Jesus to you?

It does not say that! I would accept the verse as "therefore God the Father, even thy God." That shows that Jesus has a God.

God has a God? Can the words colored red below said it?

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes, Jesus has a God. Therefore he could not be God.

Is the word "God" just mentioned once in that verse?

What are you trying to say?

The pajamas, even your pajamas.
Are they two pajamas, or one and the same?

The donkey, even your donkey.
Are they two donkeys, or one and the same?

The God, your God.
Are they two Gods, or one and the same?

What do the Father said to the Son in verse 8? Is it not "thy throne O God? Yes or no?

No. It should read, according to the ancient Hebrew text from which Paul was quoting, "Thy throne is God." That means that the Son gets all his power from God.

There is no word "is" in the original Hebrew text of Psa 45:6.(see below)
Is the original Hebrew text wrong?

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626

Psa 45:6 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626  מלכותך׃ H4438 

The original Hebrew text doesn't say what you are saying. I wrote on another thread the following:

The original Psalm that is quoted in Hebrews is a hymn in praise of the king of Israel. God is addressed nowhere in this psalm. Instead, we get a lengthy description of the king's ideal life. He is described as shooting arrows, girded with a sword, perfumed, living in awesome palaces, entertained with lutes, attended by fair princesses, etc. So what does it have to do with Jesus, and why is it quoted as if it were about Jesus? Simply, it is because Jesus is the Messiah, the rightful king of Israel. What is said about the king of Israel can be said equally of the Messiah (who is not God). In fact, the ideal life described in mundane terms is stated to be the reward given to the king because "you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness." The psalm continues, "Therefore, God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions." The psalm is about what God has done for the person spoken to.

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads: 'Your divine throne is everlasting.' The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.'" Scholars say that there could be two ways to translate the verse, but which is more probable? As I've tried to say, "God is your throne" is the most probable. The Hebrew Psalm would not call the king "God."

Do the Hebrew text of Psa 45:6, say what you are saying also? There is no word "is" there.
And many Bible translations says, "Your throne, O God".
Below is the Greek translation of Psalms 45:6, and still I do not find the word "is".
And lexicon define "ho" as definite article "the" and not "is".

Psa 45:6 ο G3588 T-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  εν G1722 PREP  μεσω G3319 A-DSM  αυτης G846 D-GSF  ου G3364 ADV  σαλευθησεται G4531 V-FPI-3S  βοηθησει G997 V-FAI-3S  αυτη G846 D-DSF  ο G3588 T-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  το G3588 T-ASN  προς G4314 PREP  πρωι G4404 ADV

ὁ / ἡ / τό ho / hē / to
Thayer Definition:
1) the definite article, “the” in its masculine, feminine or neuter gender
2) the demonstrative pronoun
Examples:
“this”
“that”
“these”

[onewithhim]

It does not say that! I would accept the verse as "therefore God the Father, even thy God." That shows that Jesus has a God.

God has a God? Can the words colored red below said it?

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes, Jesus has a God. Therefore he could not be God.

Is the word "God" just mentioned once in that verse?

What are you trying to say?

The pajamas, even your pajamas.
Are they two pajamas, or one and the same?

The donkey, even your donkey.
Are they two donkeys, or one and the same?

The God, your God.
Are they two Gods, or one and the same?

What do the Father said to the Son in verse 8? Is it not "thy throne O God? Yes or no?

No. It should read, according to the ancient Hebrew text from which Paul was quoting, "Thy throne is God." That means that the Son gets all his power from God.

There is no word "is" in the original Hebrew text of Psa 45:6.(see below)
Is the original Hebrew text wrong?

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626

Psa 45:6 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626  מלכותך׃ H4438 

The original Hebrew text doesn't say what you are saying. I wrote on another thread the following:

The original Psalm that is quoted in Hebrews is a hymn in praise of the king of Israel. God is addressed nowhere in this psalm. Instead, we get a lengthy description of the king's ideal life. He is described as shooting arrows, girded with a sword, perfumed, living in awesome palaces, entertained with lutes, attended by fair princesses, etc. So what does it have to do with Jesus, and why is it quoted as if it were about Jesus? Simply, it is because Jesus is the Messiah, the rightful king of Israel. What is said about the king of Israel can be said equally of the Messiah (who is not God). In fact, the ideal life described in mundane terms is stated to be the reward given to the king because "you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness." The psalm continues, "Therefore, God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions." The psalm is about what God has done for the person spoken to.

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads: 'Your divine throne is everlasting.' The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.'" Scholars say that there could be two ways to translate the verse, but which is more probable? As I've tried to say, "God is your throne" is the most probable. The Hebrew Psalm would not call the king "God."

Do the Hebrew text of Psa 45:6, say what you are saying also? There is no word "is" there.

The Hebrew text, as seen in the Jewish Bible Society's version, is: "Your divine throne is everlasting." This is how Hebrew writers interpreted the verse. Look it up in a Jewish Bible.

[Difflugia]

Do the Hebrew text of Psa 45:6, say what you are saying also? There is no word "is" there.

The Hebrew text, as seen in the Jewish Bible Society's version, is: "Your divine throne is everlasting." This is how Hebrew writers interpreted the verse. Look it up in a Jewish Bible.

That's one English translator's reading of the Hebrew text. The four Hebrew words mean "throne (you) | God | always | and always." The words for always are different, but synonyms; "eternal and forever" or some such.

The JPS translations (1917 and 1985) are both modern translations. To claim that they somehow represent Judaism of antiquity is just talking through your hat. Furthermore, "your divine throne" isn't remotely the same as "your throne is God" and the Septuagint reading cannot be back-translated as "your divine throne." Regardless of how one reads the Greek of the Septuagint, the modern JPS translation represents a different, third idea in how the Hebrew should be translated.

Actual "Jewish tradition" would be found in things like Rashi's commentary and the Targumim.

Rashi's commentary on Psalm 45:7 (in the Tanakh versification) reads:

Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever, as the matter that is stated (Exod. 7:1): “I have made you a judge (נתתיך אלהים) over Pharaoh.” And why? Because “a scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom,” that your judgments are true, and you are fit to govern.

Rashi treats the reference to Elohim as a vocative address to "prince and judge."

The Targum (translation of the Tanakh into Aramaic) treats the reference to Elohim as vocative, but changes it to the Aramaic abbreviation for the Tetragrammaton (יְיָ). Instead of speaking to the king, as most traditional Jewish sources treat it, the Targum avoids the uncomfortable reference to a human king as "God" by reinterpreting the verse as speaking to Yahweh Himself of His throne. The English translation that I found online translates it:

The throne of your glory, O LORD, lasts forever and ever; the scepter of your kingdom is an upright scepter.

If you're going to appeal to "Jewish tradition," you're barking up the absolutely worst tree possible for the interpretation you want, particularly as we move back closer to the era when Hebrews was composed.

[Capbook]

God has a God? Can the words colored red below said it?

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes, Jesus has a God. Therefore he could not be God.

Is the word "God" just mentioned once in that verse?

What are you trying to say?

The pajamas, even your pajamas.
Are they two pajamas, or one and the same?

The donkey, even your donkey.
Are they two donkeys, or one and the same?

The God, your God.
Are they two Gods, or one and the same?

What do the Father said to the Son in verse 8? Is it not "thy throne O God? Yes or no?

No. It should read, according to the ancient Hebrew text from which Paul was quoting, "Thy throne is God." That means that the Son gets all his power from God.

There is no word "is" in the original Hebrew text of Psa 45:6.(see below)
Is the original Hebrew text wrong?

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626

Psa 45:6 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626  מלכותך׃ H4438 

The original Hebrew text doesn't say what you are saying. I wrote on another thread the following:

The original Psalm that is quoted in Hebrews is a hymn in praise of the king of Israel. God is addressed nowhere in this psalm. Instead, we get a lengthy description of the king's ideal life. He is described as shooting arrows, girded with a sword, perfumed, living in awesome palaces, entertained with lutes, attended by fair princesses, etc. So what does it have to do with Jesus, and why is it quoted as if it were about Jesus? Simply, it is because Jesus is the Messiah, the rightful king of Israel. What is said about the king of Israel can be said equally of the Messiah (who is not God). In fact, the ideal life described in mundane terms is stated to be the reward given to the king because "you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness." The psalm continues, "Therefore, God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions." The psalm is about what God has done for the person spoken to.

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads: 'Your divine throne is everlasting.' The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.'" Scholars say that there could be two ways to translate the verse, but which is more probable? As I've tried to say, "God is your throne" is the most probable. The Hebrew Psalm would not call the king "God."

Do the Hebrew text of Psa 45:6, say what you are saying also? There is no word "is" there.

The Hebrew text, as seen in the Jewish Bible Society's version, is: "Your divine throne is everlasting." This is how Hebrew writers interpreted the verse. Look it up in a Jewish Bible.

Would you say that the original Hebrew text is wrong because of your preferred translation?

[onewithhim]

Do the Hebrew text of Psa 45:6, say what you are saying also? There is no word "is" there.

The Hebrew text, as seen in the Jewish Bible Society's version, is: "Your divine throne is everlasting." This is how Hebrew writers interpreted the verse. Look it up in a Jewish Bible.

That's one English translator's reading of the Hebrew text. The four Hebrew words mean "throne (you) | God | always | and always." The words for always are different, but synonyms; "eternal and forever" or some such.

The JPS translations (1917 and 1985) are both modern translations. To claim that they somehow represent Judaism of antiquity is just talking through your hat. Furthermore, "your divine throne" isn't remotely the same as "your throne is God" and the Septuagint reading cannot be back-translated as "your divine throne."

That is not true. I have accurately presented the facts of this in a previous post which apparently you have ignored.