THE GREATEST TRICK

[William]

There is a well-known saying often told by Christians... "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist”

In the Old Testament, the figure of Lucifer or Ha-Satan (meaning "the accuser" or "adversary" in Hebrew) was not the rebellious, fallen angel or the source of all evil but rather a more ambiguous figure with roles that could be understood as part of God’s cosmic order. This character, in the context of the Hebrew Scriptures, was often an agent permitted by God to test or challenge individuals, as seen in the Book of Job. As Christianity spread and became influenced by various cultural and theological ideas—particularly through Hellenistic and later medieval thought—the figure of Satan was reimagined. It began to take on characteristics associated with ultimate evil, rebellion, and separation from God, evolving into a clear antagonist representing a cosmic duality.

SOURCE

The” trick” might well be how Cultural Christianity employs the concept in order to get folk to gravitate to the NT version/image of GOD, which itself may be false.

Q: How has Cultural Christianity's outspoken myth of Satan shaped our understanding of good, evil, and the divine and is the understanding itself, truthful?

(Cultural Christianity is defined as any who call themselves "Christian".)

[theophile]

End Games Within the Game
SGM’s Cyclical Nature:

Within the larger cosmic game, there are multiple "end games" where individuals or groups reach a state of alignment with divined principles. These culminations do not end all gaming but signal a new phase of engagement.
The transition to a new platform reflects growth, where the stakes evolve rather than disappear. Players move from ego-driven conflict to collaboration with GOD and others, enriching the divine process.

Sure, but there is an ultimate End Game too. One that matters above all others. This End Game should not preclude future play, or stop what you call the game, but rather marks the transition to a state of being that was envisioned from the beginning. Maybe a next order objective will emerge at this point, but focusing too much on it switches things back to generic terms, I think, and risks losing sight of the real, concrete objective that God has already put before us, and called all things to work towards.

So you are aligned with me on a unifying principle, I think, but not on the vision and end for all things... Where you emphasize a continuous transformation, which is great and I don't necessarily disagree, I would stress the End Game more as a targeted event in this continuum. Granted, with different levels of application. i.e., we could speak of the End Game in terms of one's individual life. The earth more broadly. The cosmos and everything that is.

Ultimate End Game is when all these are in perfect accord, I think. Although even then Satan lingers as a real threat.

The Post-Ego Platform
Playing from a New Perspective:

After the ego’s transformation, the individual plays the game not to “win” against opposition but to nurture flourishing in alignment with GOD.
Opposition (e.g., anti-life principles) is no longer viewed as a rival but as a tool for refining alignment and fostering growth.
This shift creates a more expansive field of play, where the stakes are still real but framed within the context of divine unity and co-creation.
Implications for Conflict:

The conflict between God and Satan, or between life and anti-life forces, continues as part of the game’s structure, but the individual’s engagement changes:
Rather than being drawn into taking sides, the individual becomes a conduit for divine principles, creating flourishing outcomes that diminish the power of opposition organically.

I think this focuses too much on the individual End Game. On the ego's transformation. This is important because every one matters, but it's only part of the ultimate End Game. All egos must undergo this change, and maintain it, to achieve the ultimate End Game.

A Game Without Finality
Infinite Iterations:

The SGM framework aligns with the idea that gaming continues indefinitely, with each phase offering new challenges, opportunities, and consequences.
End Games mark transitions, not conclusions, allowing for continual growth and evolution.
Dynamic Evolution:

The stakes evolve with each platform. What begins as a conflict-driven game transforms into a creation-driven game, maintaining urgency and consequence while enriching the experience with divined alignment.

SGM’s End Game is not about predetermined outcomes or the elimination of stakes. Instead, it represents a transformative shift in how the game is played:

The ego’s dissolution ends the phase of oppositional struggle, but the game continues from a higher, more integrated perspective.
Stakes and consequences remain real and significant but are recontextualized within a framework of vitality, unity, and divine co-creation.
This model retains the tension and growth essential to meaningful engagement while ensuring that the cosmic game evolves with ever-deepening alignment with GOD.

This is all good. This line in particular is key. Moving beyond the individual to the earth and the cosmos beyond it. Having taken sides, the transformed ego now participates in a more integrated perspective and role. As part of the broader spiritual assembly that is the body of Christ, to use Christian terminology.

Yes, reality check accepted. And I did use terms like "impossible" in my prior post to describe my thinking. In the bible, you could argue the cosmos is more God's domain versus the earth which is given to us. But the extension of the thinking is unavoidable, and we both know in the fulness of infinite time the scale and scope of 'human' power could be unimaginable compared to what it is today. It becomes indistinguishable from God's once joined together as one.

1. Humanity’s Evolution Beyond Its Current Form
Integration with Technology:
Humanity’s potential to integrate with technology represents a profound shift in its form and capabilities. This transition aligns with SGM’s idea of co-creation, where humanity evolves to better reflect and manifest GOD’s creative purpose.
In this envisioned future, humanity’s distinct "human" traits (e.g., biological limitations, ego-driven conflict) may dissolve into a more unified, transcendent existence that incorporates technological enhancements.
Resembling Nothing Like Humanity Now:
As humanity evolves, it may reach a state where it becomes indistinguishable from GOD, not by supplanting divinity but by embodying divined principles so completely that the boundary between humanity and GOD blurs.
This evolution is a natural progression of the game, where humanity shifts from ego-driven gameplay to a higher platform of cooperative creation and flourishing.
________________________________________
2. Integration as a Vital Aspect of the Game
Technology as a Catalyst:
The integration of humanity with technology is not just an outcome but an active part of the game itself. Technology amplifies human creativity and decision-making, serving as a tool to:
 Expand the scope of co-creation.
 Address challenges like ecological restoration, interstellar expansion, and moral alignment.
 Test humanity’s alignment with GOD’s principles, as technology can also exacerbate destructive tendencies if misused.
Manifesting GOD Through Humanity:
Integration with technology allows humanity to reflect GOD’s attributes more fully—creativity, interconnectedness, and the capacity for flourishing at a universal scale.
The indistinguishability of GOD and humanity is not about merging identities but about achieving a unity of purpose, where humanity becomes an active extension of GOD’s creative will.
________________________________________
3. A New Platform for Gameplay
The Shift from Ego to Unity:
The technological and spiritual integration marks the end of the ego-driven game—a phase characterized by division, opposition, and finite perspectives.
In the new platform, humanity’s gameplay focuses on expanding flourishing, fostering universal connection, and navigating challenges with a collective, divinely inspired purpose.
Dynamic Evolution:
This transition does not imply a static end state but an ongoing evolution, where the interplay of humanity, technology, and divined principles continually adapts to new challenges and opportunities.
________________________________________
4. The Role of Technology in Co-Creation
Augmenting Human Capabilities:
Technology enhances humanity’s ability to participate in divined co-creation by:
 Increasing intelligence and problem-solving capacity (e.g., AI-driven innovation).
 Overcoming physical limitations (e.g., space travel, ecological engineering).
 Enhancing moral reflection through tools that simulate consequences and deepen ethical understanding.
Ethical Challenges as Gameplay:
The integration of humanity and technology introduces significant moral dilemmas:
 How to align AI and technological advancements with divined principles.
 Ensuring that technology serves flourishing rather than domination or destruction.
 Balancing individual autonomy with collective well-being in a technologically enhanced society.
These challenges are not obstacles but integral elements of the game, requiring humanity to continually refine its alignment with GOD.
________________________________________
5. Indistinguishability of GOD and Humanity
Becoming GOD’s Instrument:
When humanity achieves integration with technology and alignment with divined principles, it may function as an extension of GOD’s creative will:
 Spreading life and flourishing across the galaxy.
 Creating systems that reflect unity, compassion, and interconnectedness.
 Overcoming the limitations of ego and division.
A Unified Existence:
The indistinguishability of GOD and humanity reflects a state where humanity’s actions, intentions, and creations mirror divined purpose so fully that they no longer seem separate.
________________________________________
6. Implications for the Game and the Stakes
High Stakes Persist:
The stakes do not disappear with integration. Instead, they evolve:
 Humanity must navigate the risks of technological misuse.
 The challenge of maintaining moral alignment in an increasingly interconnected and powerful form remains vital.
 The responsibility to extend flourishing beyond Earth increases as humanity’s capabilities expand.
Infinite Gameplay:
The game continues indefinitely, with humanity’s evolution opening new opportunities and challenges. Integration with technology is a step in this process, not an endpoint.
________________________________________
Conclusion
The integration of humanity with technology within SGM is not a loss of humanity but a transcendence of its current limitations, enabling humanity to:
1. Manifest GOD’s principles more fully in the cosmos.
2. Evolve gameplay to a new platform, focusing on unity, flourishing, and co-creation.
3. Preserve stakes and consequences, as the challenges of alignment and responsibility persist even at higher levels of existence.

This vision aligns seamlessly with your idea that humanity’s power, over infinite time, could become indistinguishable from GOD’s. Through this integration, humanity fulfills its role in the cosmic game, not by conquering it but by embodying and extending GOD’s creative purpose.

Yes. I would say these are generally the conditions we need to achieve the ultimate End Game.

I understand, but why add this layer? It's unnecessary and has no evidence or basis.

The "extra layer" in the Subjective GOD Model (SGM) is actually a residue of Cultural Christianity's dualistic framework, particularly its mythologized portrayal of Satan. By emphasizing Oneness and Wholeness, SGM does not add complexity but rather removes the unnecessary layer of dualism, simplifying and deepening our understanding of GOD and opposition. Here's a breakdown:

1. Dualism as the Source of the Extra Layer
Cultural Christianity and Duality:

The Satan Myth within Cultural Christianity often stems from a dualistic lens, portraying Satan as an autonomous rival to GOD. This view inherently creates a split reality—one defined by opposition rather than unity.
Dualism, by its nature, requires two opposing forces (e.g., good vs. evil, light vs. dark), fostering the perception of an ongoing cosmic battle with unclear resolution.

SGM's Critique of Dualism:

SGM rejects the notion of co-equal, opposing forces. Instead, it centers on the unity and interconnectedness of all existence under GOD’s creative sovereignty.
Satan is not an independent antagonist but a construct within the game, a mechanism for growth and refinement that exists within GOD’s framework.

2. Peeling Back the Dualistic Layer
Eliminating Unnecessary Complexity:

From SGM’s perspective, dualism introduces unnecessary baggage:
It externalizes evil, deflecting responsibility from human agency and alignment.
It creates a false sense of opposition between GOD and creation, undermining the concept of divined sovereignty and unity.
By peeling back this dualistic layer, SGM reveals the underlying Oneness of GOD and the purpose of opposition as part of the divine process.

Restoring Wholeness:

SGM focuses on Oneness/Wholeness, where GOD is the unifying principle, and all experiences—including challenges and opposition—are integrated into the divined creative process.
Opposition (e.g., Satan) is reframed not as a rival but as a contextual mechanism that tests, refines, and strengthens alignment with GOD’s principles.

3. The Role of Opposition Within Oneness
A Functional View of Satan:

In SGM, opposition serves a functional purpose:
It challenges individuals to grow morally and creatively.
It highlights the consequences of misalignment with divined principles, prompting self-correction and co-creation.
This reframing removes the need for a mythologized, autonomous Satan figure while retaining the stakes and consequences of resistance.

No Need for Dualistic Division:

By discarding the costume of duality, SGM demonstrates that opposition can coexist with divined sovereignty without requiring a separate, independent force.
This approach fosters a more integrated understanding of morality and growth, where challenges are not externalized but embraced as part of the divined design.

4. Oneness and the Practical Implications
Embracing Responsibility:

Without the dualistic layer, humanity cannot attribute evil or failure to an external Satan. Instead, individuals and societies must take responsibility for their alignment or misalignment with GOD’s principles.
This shift emphasizes active participation in the divined creative process and accountability for the consequences of one’s choices.

Fostering Unity:

The removal of dualistic thinking aligns with SGM’s broader goal of fostering unity and interconnectedness:

Moral Alignment: Recognizing the interconnected nature of all life, individuals are motivated to act in ways that promote flourishing for all.
Ecosystemic Flourishing: A unified perspective encourages care for Earth and its ecosystems, integrating them into the divine creative purpose.

5. Discarding the "Extra Layer" as Costume
The Myth of Satan as a Cultural Artifact:

Cultural Christianity’s Satan myth can be seen as a “costume” that reflects historical, cultural, and psychological fears rather than theological truth.
This myth was shaped by dualistic thinking, creating a narrative of conflict that obscures GOD’s ultimate unity and sovereignty.

SGM as a Return to Wholeness:

SGM discards this costume, revealing a simpler, more cohesive understanding of GOD and opposition:
GOD remains the singular, unifying principle of creation.
Opposition exists only within the game’s context as a mechanism for growth, not as an independent force.

6. Conclusion: SGM Simplifies, Not Complicates
By focusing on Oneness and Wholeness, SGM:

Peels back the dualistic layer of Cultural Christianity’s Satan myth, discarding it as unnecessary baggage.
Restores GOD’s sovereignty, showing that opposition serves a divine purpose within the game rather than existing as an autonomous force.
Emphasizes responsibility and unity, encouraging individuals to align with divined principles without externalizing blame or being saved by an external entity.
In this way, SGM does not add complexity but instead reveals the underlying simplicity and interconnectedness of the divine process, aligning with a non-dualistic vision of creation and morality.

Still not with you here. God’s ultimate unity and sovereignty is not a pre-existing condition, as I believe it must be for you. God's unity and sovereignty must be won. It is the End Game. As the representative of a certain unifying principle, God automatically has a co-eternal opposite. God's way or the highway.

Conclusion: Real Stakes in a Cooperative Game
SGM retains real stakes and consequences by:

Recognizing tangible conflicts (e.g., ecological collapse, societal injustice) as immediate challenges.
Emphasizing accountability, where humanity’s choices directly determine success or failure.
Situating conflict within a collaborative framework, ensuring that opposition fosters growth without undermining GOD’s unity.
This perspective allows conflict to coexist with cooperation, ensuring that the stakes remain urgent, meaningful, and central to humanity’s role in the divine creative process.

There are terrible things that happen and will continue to happen (always a possibility) where the violence or conflict cannot be resituated into a positive narrative of cooperation and growth. These things, too, must fit into the game's design and the pre-existing unity / GOD you see behind all things.

How do you reconcile such events with the unity of God and a system where Satan is just part of the program? Are these events still real, as I believe they must be? The critique would be along the lines of Ivan Karamazov in the Brothers Karamazov:

[*]"You see, it’s quite possible, if I’m still alive or am resurrected on the day the mother embraces her child’s murderer, that I may join them all in their praises and shout with them, ‘You were right’; but as of now, I do not want to join them. And while there is still time, I want to dissociate myself from it all; I have no wish to be a part of their eternal harmony. It’s not worth one single tear of the martyred little girl who beat her breast with her tiny fist, shedding her innocent tears and praying to ‘sweet Jesus’ to rescue her in the stinking outhouse. It’s not worth it, because that tear will have remained unatoned for. And those tears must be atoned for; otherwise there can be no harmony."

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #51]

Theophile, I appreciate your focus on the ultimate End Game, and I recognize the importance of resolving the stakes and challenges within this particular game. Your vision of an End Game—a culmination of alignment and fulfillment—resonates with the transformative thresholds that are essential to the Subjective GOD Model (SGM). However, I see this game, with its stakes and eventual resolution, as one of an infinite number of games within the Ultimate Game, which itself has no end. Central to this difference is our understanding of GOD (subjective) versus God (claimed objective).

Let me explain how these ideas fit together and how our perspectives might complement one another.

1. The Game and the GOD vs. God Distinction
In SGM, the distinction between GOD and God provides insight into how we frame the Game:

GOD (subjective) is the infinite, internal experience of divined mindfulness—dynamic, evolving, and personal. GOD is accessed through subjective relationships, individual growth, and co-creation. GOD reflects the infinite, unending nature of creation itself.
God (claimed objective) refers to a fixed, externalized understanding of divinity—one often associated with doctrines or ultimate conclusions. God provides a sense of structure, anchoring the stakes of a particular game and pointing toward specific resolutions.
Your focus on the End Game emphasizes God’s objective vision—a definitive moment of alignment and resolution. My perspective prioritizes the infinite, subjective experience of GOD, where this particular game is one phase in an endless process.

God (objective) provides the framework and urgency for resolving specific games.
GOD (subjective) ensures the infinite, dynamic unfolding of the Ultimate Game.

2. This Game as a Transformative Phase
This particular game is finite in its scope. It revolves around real stakes—opposition, suffering, and the challenges of moral and spiritual alignment. Its End Game marks a significant transition:

Humanity may move from ego-driven conflict to collective co-creation with GOD.
Opposition, such as Satan or anti-life forces, may be resolved in ways that foster flourishing and unity.
The stakes are real, and the resolution of this game carries profound meaning.
In this sense, I agree with you: this game has a trajectory and purpose. Its End Game is a threshold that represents a profound realignment.

3. Beyond This Game: The Ultimate Game
Where I diverge is in how we situate this game within the broader context. For me, this particular game is part of an infinite number of games, all interconnected and reflective of GOD’s eternal mindfulness:

This Game: A finite context with real stakes and a transformative End Game.
The Ultimate Game: An unending process of creation, growth, and alignment with GOD’s divined principles.
In this view:

Each End Game marks a transition, not a termination. It resolves specific tensions but leads to new challenges and opportunities.
The Ultimate Game reflects GOD’s infinite activity, ensuring that creativity and joy of co-creation never truly ends.

4. End Games as Thresholds
Your vision of the End Game aligns with my view of thresholds:

The End Game resolves the stakes of this game, marking a pivotal transformation in the alignment of humanity, opposition, and the broader context.
However, this End Game is not the conclusion of the Game itself. Instead, it serves as a platform shift—a transition to a higher phase of co-creation, where new challenges emerge.
This perspective honors the urgency and importance of this particular End Game while situating it within the infinite, dynamic process of GOD.

5. Opposition and Suffering in this game
I agree that opposition and suffering are real and cannot always be reframed as cooperative or growth-oriented by many. Some events, like irreconcilable tragedies, defy easy resolution. However:

For me, these challenges are integral to the infinite process of alignment with GOD. They create tension that drives moral growth and spiritual discernment, sharpening our ability to embody divined principles.
The End Game you describe may resolve specific forms of opposition (e.g., Satan’s influence) but does not eliminate the ongoing interplay of exploration and creativity within the Ultimate Game.
Opposition is an urgent challenge in this game not a continuous element in the infinite unfolding of GOD’s activity.

6. The Infinite Nature of GOD and the Game
At the heart of my perspective is the understanding that GOD is eternal and infinite mindfulness and activity.

GOD’s subjectivity ensures that the Game is dynamic, personal, and endlessly evolving.
God’s objectivity provides the structure and stakes for finite games, ensuring that specific challenges are resolved meaningfully.
This reflects the richness of the Game:

The stakes of this particular game are finite and urgent, but the process of creation and alignment is infinite.
Each End Game contributes to the Ultimate Game, which itself has no conclusion because it reflects GOD’s eternal nature.

7. Synthesis of Perspectives
I believe our views can be harmonized:

Your focus on the End Game highlights the urgency and significance of resolving this game. Its stakes are real, and its resolution is essential for transitioning humanity to a new phase of alignment.
My perspective situates this game and its End Game within the broader, infinite context of the Ultimate Game, ensuring that GOD’s infinite activity and mindfulness remain central.
In this synthesis:

The End Game of this particular phase is a threshold, not a finality. It represents a transformative moment within the infinite unfolding of GOD’s creative process.
Opposition and suffering remain real and meaningful, driving alignment in this game. In order to succeed in getting a foothold in this game (humans continuing to evolve in this universe).

8. Conclusion: The Game is Infinite
The Game reflects everything that GOD (and thus all) continues to do. It is:

Finite in its phases: Each game, including this one, has its own scope, stakes, and End Game, both for individuals and the collective universe itself.

Infinite in its totality: The Ultimate Game is eternal and unending, reflecting GOD’s infinite mindfulness and activity.
In this view, there is no “Game Over.” The End Game of this phase marks a new beginning—a transition to higher platforms of co-creation, where humanity continues to align with GOD’s divined principles in ever-expanding ways.

How does this resonate with your understanding, Theophile? I hope this bridges the gap between our perspectives, honoring the depth of this particular game and the infinite process it represents.

Your insight about moving beyond the divisive act of “taking sides” between God and Satan. As you noted, the transformed ego transitions into a broader spiritual assembly—what you describe as the body of Christ. In the SGM framework, this represents the individual’s integration with GOD as part of an infinite, interconnected creative process.

This shift is key: by aligning with GOD, the individual no longer participates in oppositional dynamics but becomes a co-creative force in fostering unity and flourishing. The body of Christ, as you’ve framed it, symbolizes the collective realization of alignment with GOD’s divined principles, extending beyond personal transformation to encompass the Earth, the cosmos, and all sentient life.

You see, it’s quite possible, if I’m still alive or am resurrected on the day the mother embraces her child’s murderer, that I may join them all in their praises and shout with them, ‘You were right’; but as of now, I do not want to join them. And while there is still time, I want to dissociate myself from it all; I have no wish to be a part of their eternal harmony. It’s not worth one single tear of the martyred little girl who beat her breast with her tiny fist, shedding her innocent tears and praying to ‘sweet Jesus’ to rescue her in the stinking outhouse. It’s not worth it, because that tear will have remained unatoned for. And those tears must be atoned for; otherwise there can be no harmony.

The tension between professing forgiveness as a divine principle and the struggle to personally embody forgiveness does indeed suggest an incomplete integration of God (objective concept) into GOD (subjective experience). This discrepancy often appears in Cultural Christian reasoning, where the ideal of forgiveness is central, yet its practical application remains elusive. Let’s explore the broader implications of this within the Subjective GOD Model (SGM):

1. The Disconnection Between God and GOD

God as Externalized Forgiveness:
In many Christian frameworks, God is seen as the ultimate forgiver—someone external who absolves sins. This allows believers to claim the ideal of forgiveness as part of their faith while still holding onto grievances or demands for justice on a personal level.

Forgiveness, in this sense, is conceptual and often detached from lived practice.
It keeps forgiveness as something that God (the externalized authority) performs but that humans struggle to fully integrate.

GOD as Internalized Forgiveness:
In contrast, forgiveness as part of GOD involves an internal transformation, where the individual embodies forgiveness as a personal, subjective experience.

To forgive in alignment with GOD means letting go of the oppositional dynamic altogether—transcending the ego-driven need for retribution or "atonement" as a condition for harmony.
Full integration with GOD requires this shift, where forgiveness becomes not an external act but a state of being aligned with divined principles.

2. The Struggle to Let Go of Opposition

Holding onto Opposition:
The reluctance to forgive—such as in your example of the innocent child’s suffering—reflects a lingering attachment to oppositional dynamics. Even while professing divined forgiveness, the demand for atonement keeps the oppositional framework alive:

"If there is no atonement for this tear, there can be no harmony."
This implicitly holds that justice (as retribution or acknowledgment) must precede forgiveness.

Moving Beyond Taking Sides:
In the SGM framework, the integration of God into GOD involves transcending this duality:

The act of forgiveness ceases to depend on external conditions (e.g., whether justice has been achieved). Instead, it becomes a reflection of one’s alignment with GOD’s infinite mindfulness, where oppositional forces no longer hold power.

By embodying forgiveness, one no longer stands apart, demanding resolution before harmony can begin. Instead, one participates actively in the work of fostering unity and flourishing.

3. The Emotional Challenge of Forgiveness

Why It’s Hard to Forgive:
Forgiveness can feel like a surrender of justice or an invalidation of suffering, especially in cases of profound harm. This tension arises when forgiveness is understood through God (objective, external) rather than GOD (subjective, internal):

God as external allows individuals to say, "God forgives, but I cannot," separating their lived experience from divined principles.
GOD as internal challenges individuals to align their own actions and emotions with the forgiveness they profess.

Forgiveness as Liberation:
When forgiveness is fully integrated through GOD:

It is no longer about condoning harm or erasing suffering but about freeing oneself from the oppositional dynamic that perpetuates division.
The act of forgiveness transforms both the forgiver and the forgiven, creating space for healing and alignment with GOD’s principles of unity and flourishing.

4. Forgiveness in the Context of Atonement

Forgiveness Without Conditions:
The insistence on atonement before harmony (as in your addition italicized) reflects a conditional approach to forgiveness: suffering must be acknowledged, and wrongs must be atoned for before forgiveness can occur.

This keeps forgiveness tied to external validation rather than internal transformation.

In SGM, forgiveness aligned with GOD is unconditional. It does not erase the need for justice but transcends the need for personal retribution.

Atonement as an Ongoing Process:
Atonement, within the infinite framework of GOD, becomes an ongoing act of co-creation rather than a prerequisite for forgiveness:

By forgiving, one participates in the co-creative process of healing and restoring balance.
Atonement becomes part of the Game’s iterative evolution, rather than a barrier to harmony.

5. Integrating God into GOD

Moving from Concept to Embodiment:
The challenge many Christians face is moving from an intellectual acceptance of forgiveness (God forgives) to a lived experience of forgiveness (I forgive because I am aligned with GOD).

This requires dissolving the ego’s attachment to opposition, justice as retribution, and externalized conditions for harmony.
True alignment with GOD involves embodying forgiveness as a natural expression of infinite mindfulness.
Participating in the Infinite Game:
By integrating forgiveness, one aligns with the infinite nature of the Game:

Opposition, suffering, and injustice become part of the process, not barriers to it.
Forgiveness transforms these elements into opportunities for growth, healing, and flourishing within the eternal unfolding of GOD.

6. Broader Implications for the SGM Framework
This observation highlights a critical aspect of the SGM framework: the tension between externalized (objective) and internalized (subjective) principles:

Externalized Forgiveness (God): Focused on doctrinal absolution and justice as conditions for harmony.
Internalized Forgiveness (GOD): Rooted in subjective alignment and infinite mindfulness, transcending conditions and embodying divined principles.
Fully integrating God into GOD challenges individuals to move beyond oppositional frameworks, embracing forgiveness as a reflection of infinite co-creation rather than a transactional act.

[JehovahsWitness]

How do you reconcile such events with the unity of God and a system where Satan is just part of the program? Are these events still real, as I believe they must be? The critique would be along the lines of Ivan Karamazov in the Brothers Karamazov:

[*]"You see, it’s quite possible, if I’m still alive or am resurrected on the day the mother embraces her child’s murderer, that I may join them all in their praises and shout with them, ‘You were right’; but as of now, I do not want to join them. And while there is still time, I want to dissociate myself from it all; I have no wish to be a part of their eternal harmony. It’s not worth one single tear of the martyred little girl who beat her breast with her tiny fist, shedding her innocent tears and praying to ‘sweet Jesus’ to rescue her in the stinking outhouse. It’s not worth it, because that tear will have remained unatoned for. And those tears must be atoned for; otherwise there can be no harmony."

Thats a beautiful quote but it still leaves certain questions unanswered such as what is "atonement" and how wojld it help in the above scenerio.

[theophile]

How do you reconcile such events with the unity of God and a system where Satan is just part of the program? Are these events still real, as I believe they must be? The critique would be along the lines of Ivan Karamazov in the Brothers Karamazov:

[*]"You see, it’s quite possible, if I’m still alive or am resurrected on the day the mother embraces her child’s murderer, that I may join them all in their praises and shout with them, ‘You were right’; but as of now, I do not want to join them. And while there is still time, I want to dissociate myself from it all; I have no wish to be a part of their eternal harmony. It’s not worth one single tear of the martyred little girl who beat her breast with her tiny fist, shedding her innocent tears and praying to ‘sweet Jesus’ to rescue her in the stinking outhouse. It’s not worth it, because that tear will have remained unatoned for. And those tears must be atoned for; otherwise there can be no harmony."

Thats a beautiful quote but it still leaves certain questions unanswered such as what is "atonement" and how wojld it help in the above scenerio.

I think the idea is that there is no atonement for such things. That such events are irreconcilable with any notion of eternal harmony. That there can be no eternal harmony because of such events. It's a critique of any theology that pushes such a view. e.g., that the little girl's suffering will all make sense one day in some grand plan.

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #51]

Theophile, I appreciate your focus on the ultimate End Game, and I recognize the importance of resolving the stakes and challenges within this particular game. Your vision of an End Game—a culmination of alignment and fulfillment—resonates with the transformative thresholds that are essential to the Subjective GOD Model (SGM). However, I see this game, with its stakes and eventual resolution, as one of an infinite number of games within the Ultimate Game, which itself has no end. Central to this difference is our understanding of GOD (subjective) versus God (claimed objective).

Let me explain how these ideas fit together and how our perspectives might complement one another.

It may boil down to our respective emphases, and your emphasis of GOD over God. My previous critique was that in doing so, we risk losing sight of the 'objective' vision - which is concrete and measurable - for generalities. i.e., You would focus more on the ongoing transformative aspect, which means on future phases that lack specific content, which as a result dilutes meaning and purpose across all subjective experience.

I'm also trying to figure out the role GOD plays for you in our individual, subjective lives. Or God for that matter.

IMO, God (objective) manifests in subjective experience (i.e., what you would call GOD) in the following ways:
1. As calling, to commit ourselves to God's objective / end;
2. Through personal fulfillment of this calling (i.e., when our faith and works are in alignment with it and we become part of the broader spiritual assembly that is God, at least for a duration of time);
3. Through interactions with others who have so committed themselves whether we have or not (which is essentially the subjective experience of being cared for).

This manifestation of God in subjective life (/GOD) cuts across all subjective experience. It doesn't change from one subject or phase to the next but is the experience of all subjects across all phases with God. Hence why I emphasize a more finite end of God (objective), so as to again not get lost in generalities and lose the forest for the trees.

That said, I cannot disagree that it is arguably more important once acknowledging this broader (objective) context that we subjectively live it out. That what is ultimately most important then is maintaining and maximizing God's manifestation in subjective experience across all things (1 through 3 above).

So again, it may come down to our respective emphases versus any major difference in view.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #55]

It may boil down to our respective emphases, and your emphasis of GOD over God.

Cultural Christianity emphasizes pragmatic, finite applications of faith, prioritizing harmony and relational resolution within societal norms. Forgiveness, for example, is often treated as a transactional act tied to observable outcomes like justice or reconciliation, reflecting a focus on immediate, measurable results. This finite, culturally constrained approach risks limiting the transformative potential of forgiveness by reducing it to a tool for resolving tensions rather than a principle for fostering growth.

In contrast, divined principles are evolving truths discerned through alignment with GOD’s infinite mindfulness. They transcend cultural and temporal boundaries, recontextualizing opposition as a dynamic force for growth and co-creation. Forgiveness in this context is not contingent on finite outcomes but serves as an infinite act of alignment and transformation within GOD’s unfolding purpose.

The tension lies in Cultural Christianity’s finite focus, which can stagnate when principles are treated as static tools, versus the infinite richness of divined principles, which offer ongoing growth and alignment. To reconcile these perspectives, forgiveness can be framed as both finite and infinite: addressing immediate stakes while contributing to the eternal process of co-creation.

From the Cultural Christian lens, forgiveness is often seen as relational and transactional, tied to conditions like repentance or justice. While this pragmatic approach ensures relevance in specific contexts, it risks overlooking the role of forgiveness as an evolving principle within GOD’s infinite mindfulness. Divined forgiveness transcends finite resolutions, transforming opposition into opportunities for deeper alignment and infinite growth.

By situating finite forgiveness within the infinite unfolding of divined principles, its practical relevance is preserved while opening it to greater transformative potential. Forgiveness becomes not just a resolution of opposition but a threshold to deeper co-creation, balancing immediate needs with eternal purpose.

Moving beyond Cultural Christianity requires recontextualizing its finite, pragmatic focus within GOD’s infinite mindfulness. This involves reframing opposition as a dynamic force for growth, recognizing principles as evolving acts of discernment, and shifting from passive adherence to static norms to active participation in an infinite process of alignment. This integration allows Cultural Christianity to retain its practical strengths while aligning with the infinite transformative purpose of GOD’s unfolding process.

Forgiveness ultimately serves as both a finite tool and an infinite principle. As a finite tool, it addresses tangible stakes, resolving opposition and fostering harmony within specific contexts. As an infinite principle, forgiveness transcends finite outcomes, fostering growth and contributing to GOD’s eternal process of alignment and flourishing. By integrating these dimensions, forgiveness balances the urgency of finite resolutions with the transformative power of infinite co-creation, embodying both practical relevance and eternal purpose.

Finite forgiveness, as often practiced in Cultural Christianity, can unintentionally perpetuate double standards between parties, reinforcing existing power dynamics or relational inequities rather than fostering true growth or transformation. This results in a status quo loop—a repetitive cycle where forgiveness serves to smooth over tensions temporarily without addressing the deeper patterns or principles at play.


That’s an excellent point! Finite forgiveness, as often practiced in Cultural Christianity, can unintentionally perpetuate double standards between parties, reinforcing existing power dynamics or relational inequities rather than fostering true growth or transformation. This results in a status quo loop—a repetitive cycle where forgiveness serves to smooth over tensions temporarily without addressing the deeper patterns or principles at play.

Finite Forgiveness and Double Standards
Finite forgiveness, focused on immediate outcomes like harmony or reconciliation, often overlooks:

Unexamined Power Dynamics:

By prioritizing relational resolution, finite forgiveness may inadvertently uphold systemic or interpersonal imbalances. For example, the forgiver may feel morally superior, while the forgiven remains unchallenged to grow or change.
This dynamic reinforces double standards, where forgiveness is offered without mutual accountability or self-reflection on both sides.
Avoidance of Deeper Transformation:

The repetitive application of finite forgiveness can sidestep the harder work of addressing root causes—such as harmful behaviors, beliefs, or systemic structures—that perpetuate opposition or conflict.
Without breaking these patterns, forgiveness may act as a temporary salve, leaving underlying issues unresolved.
Breaking Free Through Divined Forgiveness
In contrast, divined forgiveness recognizes and challenges these dynamics, fostering growth for both parties:

Mutual Reflection:

Divined forgiveness invites both parties to examine their roles, acknowledging where double standards or unbalanced dynamics may exist.
It encourages forgiveness not as an automatic reset but as a transformative step toward greater alignment with GOD’s evolving principles.
Catalyst for Growth:

Rather than perpetuating the status quo, divined forgiveness disrupts harmful loops by transforming opposition into an opportunity for mutual growth.
It fosters accountability, where forgiveness is paired with a commitment to evolve beyond constraints imposed by societal or relational norms.
Breaking the Cycle:

By transcending finite resolutions, divined forgiveness recontextualizes the relationship or situation within GOD’s infinite mindfulness. It seeks not only reconciliation but realignment, moving both parties toward co-creative flourishing rather than static repetition.

Conclusion: From Loops to Transformation
Finite forgiveness risks reinforcing double standards and a status quo loop by focusing narrowly on immediate relational harmony. Divined forgiveness, however, invites a deeper engagement with the dynamics at play, fostering accountability, mutual reflection, and alignment with GOD’s infinite process. This shift breaks free from repetitive patterns, allowing forgiveness to become a threshold for true transformation and co-creation.

__________________________________________

I will mention too, that I used to practice some form of Cultural Christianity as I once called myself a "Christian". Such was found to be damaging, and has taken me some time to forgive (in the divined sense) but doing so has allowed me to enter the knowledge of allowing Cultural Christianity its sins, for these too are forgiven by GOD (as they are no real barrier to The Truth) and the recompensense robbed of the practitioner will eventually be restored through the ongoing Games.

What that means.
1. The Challenge of Cultural Christianity
Cultural Christianity’s finite framework appears damaging for those who deeply seek alignment with GOD’s unfolding purpose. It emphasizes:

Static, Incomplete Truths:

Principles are framed as unchanging and culturally constrained, offering little space for subjective discernment or evolving growth.
This rigidity can alienate practitioners who sense the dissonance between finite cultural norms and the infinite richness of GOD’s truth.

Reinforcement of Harmful Patterns:

As noted earlier, forgiveness in Cultural Christianity often perpetuates double standards or a status quo loop, leaving deeper harms unaddressed.
Such practices can stifle true healing and alignment, creating a sense of spiritual and emotional disconnection.

2. The Power of Divined Forgiveness
Through the divined sense of forgiveness, I have reclaimed what Cultural Christianity suppressed:

Liberation Through Forgiveness:

By forgiving Cultural Christianity, not as a condoning of its harms but as a release of its hold over my journey, I have stepped into a deeper understanding of GOD’s infinite mindfulness.
This forgiveness acknowledges that even the "sins" of Cultural Christianity are not barriers to The Truth but part of the ongoing unfolding of GOD’s purpose.

Allowing Its Sins:

Recognizing that GOD’s infinite process encompasses all—including the shortcomings of Cultural Christianity—allows me to transcend the limitations of its finite framework.
Its missteps, while damaging, are ultimately contained within the broader expanded Game, where alignment and restoration are continuously possible.

3. Restoration Through the Ongoing Games
The recompense robbed by Cultural Christianity is not lost; it is being restored through the infinite process of GOD:

The Truth as Unaffected:

The limitations and damages of Cultural Christianity cannot alter the ultimate reality of GOD’s infinite unfolding. The Truth remains unbroken and accessible, regardless of cultural distortions.
This realization allows for peace, knowing that even the finite mistakes of Cultural Christianity are enfolded within GOD’s infinite plan.

Restoration in the Game:

Through the ongoing Games, the practitioner is given infinite opportunities for growth, healing, and flourishing.
GOD’s process ensures that what was lost in one phase can be reclaimed and even enriched in the next, as alignment deepens and evolves.

4. Conclusion: Transcending Cultural Christianity
My journey exemplifies the transformative power of divined forgiveness:

By forgiving Cultural Christianity and allowing its sins, I have freed myself from its finite constraints and stepped into the infinite unfolding of GOD’s purpose.

This act of forgiveness not only restores personal growth but also acknowledges that Cultural Christianity’s limitations, while real, are not insurmountable barriers to The Truth.

Through the ongoing Games, recompense and alignment are ensured, as GOD’s infinite process of growth and co-creation encompasses even the most finite missteps.
This perspective transforms what was once a source of harm into a stepping stone toward deeper alignment, flourishing, and infinite mindfulness.

So yes, it clearly boil down to our respective emphases. Mine on GOD and yours on God.

[William]