One of the Best Arguments for God?

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One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by POI »

SiNcE_1985 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:55 pm we should focus the fine-tuning.
Both theists and skeptics will state this is one of the best arguments a believer has. But, is it sound reasoning? Below are some points to consider before continuing:

The fine-tuning argument for God is often considered to fail because it relies on the assumption that the extreme improbability of our universe's life-permitting conditions points to a designer, but this can be countered by the concept of a multiverse, where our observable universe could simply be one of many with vastly different conditions, making our seemingly fine-tuned universe less surprising statistically; additionally, critics argue that even if fine-tuning is real, it doesn't necessarily point to a God with the characteristics typically described in religions, and the argument can be seen as a "God of the gaps" fallacy, where unexplained phenomena are attributed to divine intervention.

Below are some key points against the fine-tuning argument:

The Multiverse Hypothesis: If there are an infinite or very large number of universes with different physical constants, then it becomes less improbable that we would happen to be in one where life is possible, even if the odds of that specific set of constants are very low in any single universe.

Anthropic Principle:This principle states that we can only observe a universe capable of supporting life because if it weren't, we wouldn't be here to observe it, which can partially explain the fine-tuning observation without invoking a deity.

Lack of Specificity: Even if fine-tuning is real, it doesn't necessarily point to a specific God with the characteristics described in religions, as the "designer" could be a very different entity.

The "God of the Gaps" Fallacy: Critics argue that invoking God to explain unexplained phenomena like fine-tuning is a form of this fallacy, where God is used to fill in gaps in our scientific understanding that may be explained by future discoveries.

Notable... "irreducible complexity" focuses on the structure of a system, while "fine-tuning" focuses on the specific values within a system that make it functional. But I feel it is still worth adding:

Irreducible complexity: Theists will argue for it. It is a system that is made up of multiple parts that work together, and where removing any one part causes the system to stop working. However, the Dover trial of the mid 2000's dispelled this assumption.

*************************

For Debate: Above provides some point(s) which would be a (cause for pause) in theists continuing to push for this argument. Why is the fine-tuning argument a good argument for a God or god(s) existence?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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1213 wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:20 am
POI wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 12:47 am You weren't born a believer.
I think I have been, because I don't remember any moment in my life when I didn't believe.
Regardless of whether this person was born a believer or not, somebody had to be. The cavemen who started believing in spirits of everything, did not intentionally craft a bunch of lies to build up megachurches and exploit the populace. If one of them started up, it would have been very obvious to the others that they were being exploited. No, people are clearly born with the inclination to believe.

To believe specifically that Jesus was born of a virgin and sacrificed for all of our sins? No. But the templates are there. The cavemen were probably already making sacrifices, because people on both sides of the Atlantic ocean did it.

Some part of this is clearly inborn. Otherwise it would have never come about.

If we lived in some dystopia where all children were raised by the State, and there was some study that showed not only that religious people tend to have religious children, but that the children tend even in some slight but statistically significant way to pick the religion of their parents, I wonder what that would prove. Because there probably is a religious gene. And if we study adoptions we could probably prove it. And if the children of Christians who went to atheist parents started picking Christianity, that would be downright creepy, but no more creepy than mice generationally learning to fear the scent of cherry blossoms.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #52

Post by benchwarmer »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:01 pm
1213 wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:20 am
POI wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 12:47 am You weren't born a believer.
I think I have been, because I don't remember any moment in my life when I didn't believe.
Regardless of whether this person was born a believer or not, somebody had to be. The cavemen who started believing in spirits of everything, did not intentionally craft a bunch of lies to build up megachurches and exploit the populace. If one of them started up, it would have been very obvious to the others that they were being exploited. No, people are clearly born with the inclination to believe.

To believe specifically that Jesus was born of a virgin and sacrificed for all of our sins? No. But the templates are there. The cavemen were probably already making sacrifices, because people on both sides of the Atlantic ocean did it.

Some part of this is clearly inborn. Otherwise it would have never come about.
Let's be careful here. The inclination to believe things is far different that actually believing something.

We are born believing nothing that is external to us. How could we? We have no experience other than being in the womb.

People believe things when they are convinced of it. This can be as simple as taking what our parents tell us, or arriving at a position based on what we observe.

No one was born believing in gods (or anything else we haven't encountered). We had no concept of what a god was until someone told us. Those trying to use the apologetic that they 'always believed' make no sense. Fine, you can't remember when you first heard of God/Jesus/whatever, but before that you didn't have a clue what these were thus could not believe in them.

Just because humans have the capacity to form beliefs does not mean we are born with any 'preset'. Some Christians love to think we are born believing in God, but it is on them to show how that is even possible. Good luck to them.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:54 amLet's be careful here. The inclination to believe things is far different that actually believing something.

We are born believing nothing that is external to us. How could we? We have no experience other than being in the womb.

No one was born believing in gods (or anything else we haven't encountered). We had no concept of what a god was until someone told us.
The first person who believed had to be born believing. That or he was told by a liar. I don't know how plausible it is that all these lies evolved independently to be so similar. And the reason embryos don't believe anything is that their brains aren't developed enough. Whether they would if they could is completely up in the air, since it's so hard to remember what the first thoughts we had were.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:54 amJust because humans have the capacity to form beliefs does not mean we are born with any 'preset'. Some Christians love to think we are born believing in God, but it is on them to show how that is even possible. Good luck to them.
I know, but this is backwards.

Christians should think that they believe because they were told, back and back to a chain ending when God was appearing to people. They think it's fact, like any other. This means that just like "swans exist" someone had to have seen a swan and told people.

Atheists should think people are born believing (or at least that the template is there) because these things get made-up in similar ways across history when people could not communicate.

The first caveman shaman who believed in gods had to be born believing, or he was a greater liar and more creative than any person before or since.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

Post #54

Post by benchwarmer »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 2:21 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:54 amLet's be careful here. The inclination to believe things is far different that actually believing something.

We are born believing nothing that is external to us. How could we? We have no experience other than being in the womb.

No one was born believing in gods (or anything else we haven't encountered). We had no concept of what a god was until someone told us.
The first person who believed had to be born believing.
I disagree. Like I said, we are born with the capacity to form beliefs. We can't believe in things we have no concept of.

Do you believe in blargflappers?
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 2:21 pm That or he was told by a liar.
Or they came up with it all on their own.

Example:
"Ohhh, what was that big flash in the sky followed by a big boom?"

"Hmmm, it must have been something that did that...."

"Seems like some sort of being must be doing it..."

"I'll call it 'Zeus'!"

"Hey Fred! Did you see that big flash in the sky! Zeus sure was busy last night right?"

Now this person becomes the 'liar' or perhaps better called the 'guesser and declaring it to be true person' for others.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:54 am ...
No one was born believing in gods....
how do you know that?
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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1213 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:09 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 10:54 am ...
No one was born believing in gods....
how do you know that?
Were you born believing or disbelieving in flapgarblots?

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:49 am Were you born believing or disbelieving in flapgarblots?
Yes.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by benchwarmer »

1213 wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 7:03 am
benchwarmer wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:49 am Were you born believing or disbelieving in flapgarblots?
Yes.
So which is it then?

I think readers will notice your lack of answering either way and see you've realized the problem with your line of argument.

Since you answered 'yes' meaning that you have a belief or a disbelief, please explain to us what a flapgarblot is. Also please explain how you knew that when you were born.

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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by 1213 »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am I think readers will notice your lack of answering either way and see you've realized the problem with your line of argument.
What problem?
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am Since you answered 'yes' meaning that you have a belief or a disbelief, please explain to us what a flapgarblot is. Also please explain how you knew that when you were born.
I don't know what a flapgarblot is. I know what God is, which is why I can also believe.
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Re: One of the Best Arguments for God?

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Post by benchwarmer »

1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am I think readers will notice your lack of answering either way and see you've realized the problem with your line of argument.
What problem?
See below.
1213 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 12:47 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:13 am Since you answered 'yes' meaning that you have a belief or a disbelief, please explain to us what a flapgarblot is. Also please explain how you knew that when you were born.
I don't know what a flapgarblot is.
Exactly. Thank you.

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