Why Don't Grownups Believe in Santa Claus?

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Why don't grownups believe in Santa Claus?

Is it because of evidence, or would they just reach a certain point and stop believing anyway, even without evidence?

If they would reach that point without direct evidence, that actually does not bode well for the traditional atheist analogy that belief in religion should be discarded in the same way, because people aren't reaching this point where they no longer believe in Santa Claus based on evidence - they're reaching it simply because they grow up. That does not make the child wrong and the adult, right; it just makes the adult better at surviving.

I've noticed that most people in the modern world are walking around so incredulous that if they were poofed away to Narnia, they would find ways to explain it so that they were still in the real world, animals didn't talk, magic wasn't real, and everything made that sort of dull, drudgery-ridden grownup sense that they're accustomed to being fed, like gruel you've eaten for so long that like a cat, you turn your nose up at anything else. The cat does that so it doesn't get poisoned. It's been alive until now, so the best bet is to keep eating what it's been eating, not trying anything new. And the grownup does that so it doesn't get scammed or duped. It's necessary - a defence mechanism. It helps the organism not die. But that doesn't mean it's evidence-based or logic-wrought.

As the modern world becomes more and more scammy, as capitalists find more and more ways to invent loopholes, manipulate agreements, and legally deceive so they can take without giving and pretend their victim agreed to it, and as the law continues to support them doing that, perhaps people's natural incredulity is simply getting ramped-up because it really is a defence mechanism. That could be the reason there are more atheists. And it works. The churches don't get their money and even if you believe God is real, we all know that many of those churches are simply money mills.

This is backwards to the way religion is thought of by atheists as being for survival and probably not true, while atheism doesn't exactly help anybody, but is more likely to be actually true. But as the world turns upside-down, perhaps we all naturally fall off the ceiling and onto the floor.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

It's quite the opposite. No one believes in atheism. If they truly drank that cup, they would be unable to move because of the existential dread.

Well it's tough for sure. But I prefer an unfair world that simply is, to an unfair world that was designed so.

When I'm dead, I'm dead. That's horrifying. And I often think, what if it wasn't that? But it is that, in all likelihood.

And I would say that you indicate to me that you have not truly drunk from the cup of atheism. Who can?

[Purple Knight]

And I would say that you indicate to me that you have not truly drunk from the cup of atheism. Who can?

Nobody because we can't truly know.

However, if I say unicorns do not exist, nobody will try to correct me. If I say pixies do not exist, nobody will say, but oh, we can't really know that, and they might, and every time someone says they do not believe in fairies, a fairy drops dead. They might be right. But nobody does this. And nobody does this because at some point we have to say that the things that might exist, that we can't see, don't exist.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

It's quite the opposite. No one believes in atheism. If they truly drank that cup, they would be unable to move because of the existential dread.

Don't worry Woootah, we are doing just fine and unlike theists, we aren't afraid to face reality in all its existential glory!


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

Don't worry Woootah, we are doing just fine and unlike theists, we aren't afraid to face reality in all its existential glory!

I'm quite afraid to die actually, because I legit believe I'm actually, truly, really going to be dead dead. As in, gone. Not exist anymore. It's horrifying. It's such a deep pit of fear that's almost beyond comprehension, when truly considered.

That's why people generally don't consider it. Even if they say they are an atheist, and they say they believe they will be atheist dead, as in, dead dead, not exist anymore, they don't and can't think about it too much. The dread and horror will eat them alive. They go about in their normal lives not considering it, sort of thinking they will not actually truly die, if only by the omission of considering that dread pit.

But here's the thing: My fear of something doesn't push it out of reality just because I can't look at it for long.

[Wootah]

Don't worry Woootah, we are doing just fine and unlike theists, we aren't afraid to face reality in all its existential glory!

I'm quite afraid to die actually, because I legit believe I'm actually, truly, really going to be dead dead. As in, gone. Not exist anymore. It's horrifying. It's such a deep pit of fear that's almost beyond comprehension, when truly considered.

That's why people generally don't consider it. Even if they say they are an atheist, and they say they believe they will be atheist dead, as in, dead dead, not exist anymore, they don't and can't think about it too much. The dread and horror will eat them alive. They go about in their normal lives not considering it, sort of thinking they will not actually truly die, if only by the omission of considering that dread pit.

But here's the thing: My fear of something doesn't push it out of reality just because I can't look at it for long.

Honesty is a rare commodity anywhere.

[Tcg]

Don't worry Woootah, we are doing just fine and unlike theists, we aren't afraid to face reality in all its existential glory!

I'm quite afraid to die actually, because I legit believe I'm actually, truly, really going to be dead dead. As in, gone. Not exist anymore. It's horrifying. It's such a deep pit of fear that's almost beyond comprehension, when truly considered.

That's why people generally don't consider it. Even if they say they are an atheist, and they say they believe they will be atheist dead, as in, dead dead, not exist anymore, they don't and can't think about it too much. The dread and horror will eat them alive. They go about in their normal lives not considering it, sort of thinking they will not actually truly die, if only by the omission of considering that dread pit.

But here's the thing: My fear of something doesn't push it out of reality just because I can't look at it for long.

Yes, facing reality certainly can include a component of fear. However, one can face the fact that this life is almost certainly the only one we'll ever have without it leading to being "...unable to move because of the existential dread." Given my advanced age, I face the reality of the finality of death on a near daily basis and yet my life is fulfilling and happy. I'm moving just fine in fact; this reality motivates me not to squander this precious gift of life.

ETA: I can foresee the possible reactions to my use of the phrase "precious gift of life" and receiving the comment something like, oh, if you believe life is a gift, you must believe in a gift-giver. Certainly not, what I mean by that phrase is better expressed as a "serendipitous random occurrence."

And an additional thought, it is the fact that life is temporary that makes it precious. Short and yet wonderful or at least it can be, wonderful that it is. It is definitely short.


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

Given my advanced age, I face the reality of the finality of death on a near daily basis and yet my life is fulfilling and happy. I'm moving just fine in fact; this reality motivates me not to squander this precious gift of life.

I would wager you're not actively thinking about the fact that you will actually truly die when you are feeling happiest and most fulfilled. Life's funny that way.

And I agree about the gift of life. But it's purer if there's no gift-giver. Instead of being about not offending somebody who took a lot of trouble to knit you that hideous sweater, it's about you being happy, because it's your life, yours alone, and if you can be happy, you should.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #27]

You can't call something a gift if there is no giver.

Like I said. Apply atheism to that notion.

[Purple Knight]

You can't call something a gift if there is no giver.

Maybe you shouldn't, and maybe it's linguistically incorrect, but people do, and so language changes. I'm not sure we have a word for something that just lands in your lap, but is nonetheless to be treasured for the benefit of the one who got it, because it is precious. (certainly, not every possible person is alive.)

It's probably an artefact of religiosity that we don't have such a term, because according to Christianity God is responsible for every such instance of good fortune.

[Tcg]

Given my advanced age, I face the reality of the finality of death on a near daily basis and yet my life is fulfilling and happy. I'm moving just fine in fact; this reality motivates me not to squander this precious gift of life.

I would wager you're not actively thinking about the fact that you will actually truly die when you are feeling happiest and most fulfilled. Life's funny that way.

Actually, there are times that I am. Many times. Knowing that I'm going to die, and that death is final, reminds how wondrous it is to be alive in that moment. I'm actually entering into a very happy and fulfilled time of my life. What does scare me at times is the fear that it's going to end now when I'm just getting things together so well.

And I agree about the gift of life. But it's purer if there's no gift-giver. Instead of being about not offending somebody who took a lot of trouble to knit you that hideous sweater, it's about you being happy, because it's your life, yours alone, and if you can be happy, you should.

That's a good perspective.

As to why adults don't believe in Santa, it's because Santa doesn't have the magic adults crave. If Santa offered some way to deny the finality of death, adults would line up for miles to sit in his lap. They'd figure out ways to resolve the whole rotund man fitting down the chimney issue. Chimney would no longer mean a chimney but rather some opening to a dwelling that'd work.

What are there 9 billion of us now? So, the number of children would be what half that? A third? So, 3 billion. only half are good so 1.5 billion. There'd be additional ways to lower that number and raise the number of deliverers to make it sound reasonable to deliver all those presents in one night. Maybe Amazon would get in on the gig somehow. Sure, it's irrational but, they do that now with tales of miracles and resurrections and other promises from the gods.

Apologetics invented to salvage the promise of heaven.


Tcg