Isaiah 45
22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him.
Philippians 2:10-11
English Standard Version
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Is every knee meant to bow to God or to Jesus or is this evidence Jesus is God?
Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
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Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #11[Replying to APAK in post #10]
I believe we have to examine closely the larger picture into the words used in Philippians 2:11-12, and in Isaiah 45:23.
So the question, "How important was it for a Jew to bow down to Jehovah anly? When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, Mordecai, a Jew in captivity, was a man under law who refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. Rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide. He sought after the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction.
With King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for the annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day. So, the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity. Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …” Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law and not bowing to men images or other gods. Let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Not to bend a knee to an image of gold, the three Jewish men were willing to sacrifice their lives.
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.” But in Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
I believe we have to examine closely the larger picture into the words used in Philippians 2:11-12, and in Isaiah 45:23.
So the question, "How important was it for a Jew to bow down to Jehovah anly? When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, Mordecai, a Jew in captivity, was a man under law who refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. Rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide. He sought after the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction.
With King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for the annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day. So, the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity. Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …” Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law and not bowing to men images or other gods. Let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Not to bend a knee to an image of gold, the three Jewish men were willing to sacrifice their lives.
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.” But in Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #12Yes, indeed...placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 1:12 pm [Replying to APAK in post #10]
I believe we have to examine closely the larger picture into the words used in Philippians 2:11-12, and in Isaiah 45:23.
So the question, "How important was it for a Jew to bow down to Jehovah anly? When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, Mordecai, a Jew in captivity, was a man under law who refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. Rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide. He sought after the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction.
With King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for the annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day. So, the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity. Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …” Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law and not bowing to men images or other gods. Let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Not to bend a knee to an image of gold, the three Jewish men were willing to sacrifice their lives.
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.” But in Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
The command to love their God...There is only one Creed (Credo) worth living and dying for in this earthly life.
The famous 6 words of the Shema, recited by Hebrews and Israelites every day. "Hear o Israel the LORD our God is one LORD" Deuteronomy 6:4 "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad"
To remind them who this life is. The LORD, YHWH is one indivisible person and Spirit.
"it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #13But you don't really think Jesus deserves the name of God right? Like if I called someone the G.O.A.T. (greatest of all time) I don't mean it right?
Only God truly deserves the name of God right?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #14[Replying to APAK in post #12]
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #15I do know of a 'Progressive revelation' as used by later NT scripture to validate and clarify much of the OT scripture, yes of course. It cannot be used as a deceptive cover however to support pet theories in an attempt to take advantage of unfortunate confusing nuances used in the NT that are different in the OT; like in the personal name of God as YHWH, to LORD in the OT, to the transliterated word 'kurios' (Lord) in the NT. These titles must be kept coherent and tracked, and never abused, as I see you have done here.placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 3:21 pm [Replying to APAK in post #12]
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
'Kurios' never equates to theos!!
The Greek word κύριος means "Master-Lord-Ruler". It has no connection to YHWH, which in Greek is translated (excluding pronouns and articles) using forms of the verb "εἰμὶ" (to be) . Also, the Greek cultural background, of its usage where the word "κύριος" (lord) is never used in place of the word "θεός" (god).
In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, kurios is frequently used to translate the divine name YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) about 7000 times (LORD/Lord), and it appears in the New Testament about 740 times, often referring to Jesus(should have been just 'lord' to lessen the contrived confusion).
As already said, the term can denote a person of higher status, a master of property or slaves, or a title of address for someone with authority.
In the New Testament, kurios is used to address Jesus, and unfortunately by translators, God the Father (should have been LORD or YHWH), and anyone or anything that one serves.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [a]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [c]by the Holy Spirit."
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 12:3 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
3" διο γνωριζω υμιν οτι ουδεις εν πνευματι θεου λαλων λεγει αναθεμα ιησους και ουδεις δυναται ειπειν κυριος ιησους ει μη εν πνευματι αγιω."
Philippians 2:11 (NASB)
11" And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
ΠΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΗΣΙΟΥΣ 2:11 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
11 "και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησηται οτι κυριος ιησους χριστος εις δοξαν θεου πατρος."
In both verses in the Koine language Phil.2:11 and 1 Cor.12:3 the word " ky(u)rios" is without the definite article, so the word ky(u)rios is a title that a person may be addressed. Therefore it is incorrect to translate "KY(U)RIOS IESOUS" into "YHWH Jesus" . It is absurd.
And as for Jesus being Lord(lord) and Saviour, scripture is very clear on it.
---------------------------
(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
"it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #16Bible Lexicons defined "Lord" in Phil 2:11, in Greek "κύριος kurios";APAK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 6:31 pmI do know of a 'Progressive revelation' as used by later NT scripture to validate and clarify much of the OT scripture, yes of course. It cannot be used as a deceptive cover however to support pet theories in an attempt to take advantage of unfortunate confusing nuances used in the NT that are different in the OT; like in the personal name of God as YHWH, to LORD in the OT, to the transliterated word 'kurios' (Lord) in the NT. These titles must be kept coherent and tracked, and never abused, as I see you have done here.placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 3:21 pm [Replying to APAK in post #12]
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
'Kurios' never equates to theos!!
The Greek word κύριος means "Master-Lord-Ruler". It has no connection to YHWH, which in Greek is translated (excluding pronouns and articles) using forms of the verb "εἰμὶ" (to be) . Also, the Greek cultural background, of its usage where the word "κύριος" (lord) is never used in place of the word "θεός" (god).
In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, kurios is frequently used to translate the divine name YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) about 7000 times (LORD/Lord), and it appears in the New Testament about 740 times, often referring to Jesus(should have been just 'lord' to lessen the contrived confusion).
As already said, the term can denote a person of higher status, a master of property or slaves, or a title of address for someone with authority.
In the New Testament, kurios is used to address Jesus, and unfortunately by translators, God the Father (should have been LORD or YHWH), and anyone or anything that one serves.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [a]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [c]by the Holy Spirit."
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 12:3 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
3" διο γνωριζω υμιν οτι ουδεις εν πνευματι θεου λαλων λεγει αναθεμα ιησους και ουδεις δυναται ειπειν κυριος ιησους ει μη εν πνευματι αγιω."
Philippians 2:11 (NASB)
11" And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
ΠΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΗΣΙΟΥΣ 2:11 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
11 "και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησηται οτι κυριος ιησους χριστος εις δοξαν θεου πατρος."
In both verses in the Koine language Phil.2:11 and 1 Cor.12:3 the word " ky(u)rios" is without the definite article, so the word ky(u)rios is a title that a person may be addressed. Therefore it is incorrect to translate "KY(U)RIOS IESOUS" into "YHWH Jesus" . It is absurd.
And as for Jesus being Lord(lord) and Saviour, scripture is very clear on it.
---------------------------
(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
By Thayer as "this title is given to: God, the Messiah". Yes "master" is also one of the definition.
By Mounce as "deity, the Lord Jesus Christ," etc. And "master" is also one of the defintion.
As Jesus being a Deity every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 and G2532 every G3956 tongue G1100 should acknowledge G1843 that G3754 [3 is Lord G2962 1Jesus G* 2Christ] G5547 to G1519 the glory G1391 of God G2316 the father. G3962 (ABP)
Php 2:11 και G2532 CONJ πασα G3956 A-NSF γλωσσα G1100 N-NSF εξομολογησηται G1843 V-AMS-3S οτι G3754 CONJ κυριος G2962 N-NSM ιησους G2424 N-NSM χριστος G5547 N-NSM εις G1519 PREP δοξαν G1391 N-ASF θεου G2316 N-GSM πατρος G3962 N-GSM (WESCOTT & HORT)
G2962 κύριος kurios
Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
G2962 (Mounce)
κύριος kyrios
717x: a lord, master, Mat 12:8; an owner, possessor, Mat 20:8; a potentate, sovereign, Act 25:26; a power, deity, 1Co 8:5; the Lord, Jehovah, Mat 1:22; the Lord Jesus Christ, Mat 24:42; Mrk 16:19; Luk 10:1; Jhn 4:1; 1Co 4:5; freq.; κύριε, a term of respect of various force, Sir, Lord, Mat 13:27; Act 9:6, et al. freq.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #17I think God can give His name for Jesus, even if Jesus would not deserve it. However, Bible only says God gave His name to Jesus, not did Jesus deserve it.
Do we deserve Jesus name?
...Whatever you will ask in my name,...
John 14:10-14
My new book can be read freely from here:
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view
Old version can be read from here:
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #18I guess you did not read or understand a word I just wrote, that in the context of the New Testament writings, the terms "kurios" and "theos" are not synonymous. They have however and unfortunately been translated as the same, or being interchangeable, and only in a few area of the NT writings, thank God.Capbook wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 12:29 amBible Lexicons defined "Lord" in Phil 2:11, in Greek "κύριος kurios";APAK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 6:31 pmI do know of a 'Progressive revelation' as used by later NT scripture to validate and clarify much of the OT scripture, yes of course. It cannot be used as a deceptive cover however to support pet theories in an attempt to take advantage of unfortunate confusing nuances used in the NT that are different in the OT; like in the personal name of God as YHWH, to LORD in the OT, to the transliterated word 'kurios' (Lord) in the NT. These titles must be kept coherent and tracked, and never abused, as I see you have done here.placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 3:21 pm [Replying to APAK in post #12]
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
'Kurios' never equates to theos!!
The Greek word κύριος means "Master-Lord-Ruler". It has no connection to YHWH, which in Greek is translated (excluding pronouns and articles) using forms of the verb "εἰμὶ" (to be) . Also, the Greek cultural background, of its usage where the word "κύριος" (lord) is never used in place of the word "θεός" (god).
In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, kurios is frequently used to translate the divine name YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) about 7000 times (LORD/Lord), and it appears in the New Testament about 740 times, often referring to Jesus(should have been just 'lord' to lessen the contrived confusion).
As already said, the term can denote a person of higher status, a master of property or slaves, or a title of address for someone with authority.
In the New Testament, kurios is used to address Jesus, and unfortunately by translators, God the Father (should have been LORD or YHWH), and anyone or anything that one serves.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [a]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [c]by the Holy Spirit."
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 12:3 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
3" διο γνωριζω υμιν οτι ουδεις εν πνευματι θεου λαλων λεγει αναθεμα ιησους και ουδεις δυναται ειπειν κυριος ιησους ει μη εν πνευματι αγιω."
Philippians 2:11 (NASB)
11" And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
ΠΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΗΣΙΟΥΣ 2:11 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
11 "και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησηται οτι κυριος ιησους χριστος εις δοξαν θεου πατρος."
In both verses in the Koine language Phil.2:11 and 1 Cor.12:3 the word " ky(u)rios" is without the definite article, so the word ky(u)rios is a title that a person may be addressed. Therefore it is incorrect to translate "KY(U)RIOS IESOUS" into "YHWH Jesus" . It is absurd.
And as for Jesus being Lord(lord) and Saviour, scripture is very clear on it.
---------------------------
(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
By Thayer as "this title is given to: God, the Messiah". Yes "master" is also one of the definition.
By Mounce as "deity, the Lord Jesus Christ," etc. And "master" is also one of the defintion.
As Jesus being a Deity every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 and G2532 every G3956 tongue G1100 should acknowledge G1843 that G3754 [3 is Lord G2962 1Jesus G* 2Christ] G5547 to G1519 the glory G1391 of God G2316 the father. G3962 (ABP)
Php 2:11 και G2532 CONJ πασα G3956 A-NSF γλωσσα G1100 N-NSF εξομολογησηται G1843 V-AMS-3S οτι G3754 CONJ κυριος G2962 N-NSM ιησους G2424 N-NSM χριστος G5547 N-NSM εις G1519 PREP δοξαν G1391 N-ASF θεου G2316 N-GSM πατρος G3962 N-GSM (WESCOTT & HORT)
G2962 κύριος kurios
Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
G2962 (Mounce)
κύριος kyrios
717x: a lord, master, Mat 12:8; an owner, possessor, Mat 20:8; a potentate, sovereign, Act 25:26; a power, deity, 1Co 8:5; the Lord, Jehovah, Mat 1:22; the Lord Jesus Christ, Mat 24:42; Mrk 16:19; Luk 10:1; Jhn 4:1; 1Co 4:5; freq.; κύριε, a term of respect of various force, Sir, Lord, Mat 13:27; Act 9:6, et al. freq.
While "kurios" can be applied to human authorities, "theos" is reserved for divine beings only. And of course without qualification, you have gone so far as to stick in for the name of Jesus, as being a deity in Phil 2:10 that has no place, and then you called it good. Well it's not good and fine. It stands out like a sore thumb.
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,(NEV)
And lexicons and dictionaries are not substitutes for understanding scripture over context. Context is King! And also one cannot just pluck out only one verse and gain understanding of it context as you have done, and made a gross error in understanding it if that was your goal.
Understanding context comprises of knowing the literal meaning, its historical setting its grammar and local and wider context if necessary. To then compare other surrounding scripture for understanding.
I see no work in your post to show any of this context work. You have just copied and pasted data from lexicons and dictionaries without any thought or idea of what you have in front of you. That does reflect on your simple and casual efforts to persuade anyone of your zeal for the word of God.
Context is crucial to biblical exegesis.
Now the context of Phil 2:10 is easy to gauge. Just read the verse before it to conclude who is Jesus.
(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,
Now who is deity again, God or his Son, Jesus?!
"it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #19Excuse me, Wootah, without the Lord Jesus Christ, you have no shot at salvation—NONE!
I believe you should invest in a few new commentaries. I recommend Mathew Henry, Adam Clark, the Interpreter's Bible Commentary, or a commentary by Jamison, Fausset, and Brown, or The Bible Knowledge Commentary by Walvord and Zuck. Also, get yourself a Strong's Concordance with a Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon and a Hebrew to English Lexicon by Gesenius.
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Re: Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow
Post #20Thank you Capbook! Apak, you're using the Greek Kurieo #2961 in Strongs concordance, or you're applying A or B. or C, below to Jesus. If you are, you're incorrect.Capbook wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 12:29 amBible Lexicons defined "Lord" in Phil 2:11, in Greek "κύριος kurios";APAK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 6:31 pmI do know of a 'Progressive revelation' as used by later NT scripture to validate and clarify much of the OT scripture, yes of course. It cannot be used as a deceptive cover however to support pet theories in an attempt to take advantage of unfortunate confusing nuances used in the NT that are different in the OT; like in the personal name of God as YHWH, to LORD in the OT, to the transliterated word 'kurios' (Lord) in the NT. These titles must be kept coherent and tracked, and never abused, as I see you have done here.placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 3:21 pm [Replying to APAK in post #12]
What is progressive revelation? Those who truly grasp Jehovah’s plan of salvation, will understand that the various aspects of his will and his overall plan for us are revealed in portions, and over time. Let’s call it, “God’s order of things, or his timeline for things.”
Certain truths contained throughout the Bible were revealed slowly from year to year, or from generation to generation. With that said, let's examine the following verses, no opinions, speculation, or adding to, or diminishing of the truth.
Isaiah was written between 740 and 699 B.C. The LORD is speaking to the people of Israel.
Isaiah 45:23, “I (Jehovah) have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Seven hundred years later, between 56 and 58 A.D., the book of Romans was written.
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, as I live, said the LORD (kurios = God), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Sequel follows in Philippians.
Philippians was written in 60 A.D. Philippians 2:11, “That every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios, = God)”
Two years later, in 60 A.D., Philippians was written. These verses need to be closely examined so they can be fully understood. The book of Philippians was written in 60 A.D.
Philippians 2:10, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things (those) in heaven, and things (those) in earth, and things (those) under the earth;”
Far beyond man, the angels of heaven, the devil, and fallen angelic host below the earth. Jesus is the Redeemer of the World, the only Savior, and for all time our Savior. Christ’s qualifications are extraordinary, his redeeming acts so stupendous, and the results glorious to the Father, the angels, and man, therefore impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of Jesus, the Savior of the World.
The book of Ephesians was written between 60-61 A.D. Ephesians 1:20-21, makes the statement in Philippians 2:10-11, more emphatic: The man Christ Jesus, is exalted to the right hand of his Father. He is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:”
How important was bowing down to Jehovah alone?
When a Jew would bend their knees, it was to worship Jehovah only. We see this in the following.
In the book of Esther, the Jews called Mordecai, a man under the law, refused to bow to Haman. Mordecai’s worship was meant for Jehovah alone. But rather than punish Mordecai, Haman sought something far more perfect, a total genocide, the entire destruction of all Jews throughout the Persian Empire. What was at first personal between the two became a decree of destruction. With the King Xerxes’s (Ahasuerus’s) approval, Haman set a date for annihilation, sealing the fate of the Jewish people with the casting of lots (in Hebrew, purim). Lots remain a Jewish Holy day celebrated to this day.
So the old Jew Mordecai was willing to sacrifice millions of his people, because he would not bend his knee to a man.
Why Did Mordecai Refuse to Bow?
Bowing was a gesture of respect throughout the ancient courts, but what Haman demanded crossed the line into idolatry, making Mordecai’s resistance a necessity.
Mordecai’s refusal to bow to Haman was rooted in Jewish law which forbids idolatry. The Torah forbids bowing to anything or anyone in a manner that suggests worship.
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them nor serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God …”
Haman was making himself an object of worship, demanding divine worship. Bowing to Haman wasn’t mere etiquette for Mordecai, it was idol worship, something no Jew would do.
For a second example of Jews keeping the law, and not bowing to men or images, let’s take a look at Daniel’s three friends. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon built an image of gold, and without exceptions, everyone within hearing range of the music was to bow down and worship the king’s image. But three Jewish boys, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego refused. Nebuchadnezzar burned with rage and commanded that the three be thrown into a fiery furnace. We know the rest of the story. The King looked into the fire and saw four men walking in the fire, then said, “We cast three men bound into the midst of the Fire? I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and have not been hurt: the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
In Daniel 6, King Darius set up three presidents (overseers) of which Daniel was first, and that the princes of each province would give account to them. Because they were jealous of Daniel’s position, the Persians “consulted together to establish a royal statute that, whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, except for the King, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”
In Daniel 6:10, Daniel bowed his knees three times that day, and prayed, and gave thanks before God, as he had been doing.” When the King was told, because of his decree, he had to have Daniel cast into the den of lions.
In all three of the above cases, Jews who love the LORD and kept his commandments were willing to give up their lives and the lives of their own countrymen to worship Jehovah only.
'Kurios' never equates to theos!!
The Greek word κύριος means "Master-Lord-Ruler". It has no connection to YHWH, which in Greek is translated (excluding pronouns and articles) using forms of the verb "εἰμὶ" (to be) . Also, the Greek cultural background, of its usage where the word "κύριος" (lord) is never used in place of the word "θεός" (god).
In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, kurios is frequently used to translate the divine name YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) about 7000 times (LORD/Lord), and it appears in the New Testament about 740 times, often referring to Jesus(should have been just 'lord' to lessen the contrived confusion).
As already said, the term can denote a person of higher status, a master of property or slaves, or a title of address for someone with authority.
In the New Testament, kurios is used to address Jesus, and unfortunately by translators, God the Father (should have been LORD or YHWH), and anyone or anything that one serves.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NASB)
3"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [a]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [c]by the Holy Spirit."
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 12:3 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
3" διο γνωριζω υμιν οτι ουδεις εν πνευματι θεου λαλων λεγει αναθεμα ιησους και ουδεις δυναται ειπειν κυριος ιησους ει μη εν πνευματι αγιω."
Philippians 2:11 (NASB)
11" And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
ΠΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΗΣΙΟΥΣ 2:11 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)
11 "και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησηται οτι κυριος ιησους χριστος εις δοξαν θεου πατρος."
In both verses in the Koine language Phil.2:11 and 1 Cor.12:3 the word " ky(u)rios" is without the definite article, so the word ky(u)rios is a title that a person may be addressed. Therefore it is incorrect to translate "KY(U)RIOS IESOUS" into "YHWH Jesus" . It is absurd.
And as for Jesus being Lord(lord) and Saviour, scripture is very clear on it.
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(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
By Thayer as "this title is given to: God, the Messiah". Yes "master" is also one of the definition.
By Mounce as "deity, the Lord Jesus Christ," etc. And "master" is also one of the defintion.
As Jesus being a Deity every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 and G2532 every G3956 tongue G1100 should acknowledge G1843 that G3754 [3 is Lord G2962 1Jesus G* 2Christ] G5547 to G1519 the glory G1391 of God G2316 the father. G3962 (ABP)
Php 2:11 και G2532 CONJ πασα G3956 A-NSF γλωσσα G1100 N-NSF εξομολογησηται G1843 V-AMS-3S οτι G3754 CONJ κυριος G2962 N-NSM ιησους G2424 N-NSM χριστος G5547 N-NSM εις G1519 PREP δοξαν G1391 N-ASF θεου G2316 N-GSM πατρος G3962 N-GSM (WESCOTT & HORT)
G2962 κύριος kurios
Thayer Definition:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
G2962 (Mounce)
κύριος kyrios
717x: a lord, master, Mat 12:8; an owner, possessor, Mat 20:8; a potentate, sovereign, Act 25:26; a power, deity, 1Co 8:5; the Lord, Jehovah, Mat 1:22; the Lord Jesus Christ, Mat 24:42; Mrk 16:19; Luk 10:1; Jhn 4:1; 1Co 4:5; freq.; κύριε, a term of respect of various force, Sir, Lord, Mat 13:27; Act 9:6, et al. freq.
Its Kurios, Strongs #2962 that applies to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Capbook Let me add this from my 1836 Greek to English Lexicon.
Apak, you need to study the whole meaning of the word Lord, 2962 Kurios as it also concerns a variety of meanings. The one you suggest does not apply to Jesus Christ. what does is, D-1, D-2 and D-3, below. I laid it out for you, my advice is for you to study it.
Lord: Lords: 2962. Greek is, kurios. From might, power. Lord, master, owner.
a. Generally, the possessor, owner, master, as of property, Matthew 20:8, "The lord of the vineyard." Matthew 21:40. Galatians 4:1. Septuagint for Hebrew, "Owner," Exodus 21:28-29-34. So, the master or head of a house, Mark 13:35, "The master of the house." Matthew 15:27. Septuagint for Hebrew, "Man's house," Exodus 22:7. The master or possessor of persons, servants, slaves, Matthew 10:24, 24:45, "Whom his lord hath made ruler over his household," with verse 46-48-50. Acts 16:16-19. Romans 14:4. Ephesians 6:5-9. Colossians 3:22, 4:1. Septuagint for Hebrew, "Master," Judges 19:11. Exodus 39:7, "LORD." Genesis 24:9 sequel to follow, spoken of a husband, 1 Peter 3:6, "Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord." Septuagint for Hebrew, "Lord," Genesis 18:12. Sequel to follow genitive, of thing, and without the article lord, master of anything, as having absolute authority over it, as Matthew 9:38, "Lord of the harvest." Luke 10:2. Matthew 12:8, "Lord even of the sabbath day." Mark 2:28.
b. A supreme lord, sovereign, as the Roman emperor, Acts 25:36. Of the heathen gods, 1 Corinthians 8:5, "There be gods many, and lords many," as in probably gods superior and inferior, as demons.
c. As an honorary title of address, especially to superiors, as in English Master, Sir, Monsieur, Herm. Herr. As from a servant to his master Matthew 13:27, "Sir," Luke 13:8. A son to his father Matthew 21:30, "I go sir." To a teacher, master Matthew 8:25. Luke 9:54, "Lord," and so doubled, Matthew 7:2122, "Lord Lord." Luke 6:46. To a person of dignity and authority, Mark 7:28. John 4:11-15-19-49, "Sir, come down." To the Roman procurator, Matthew 27:63. Also in the respectful intercourse of common life, John 12:21, 20:15. Acts 16:30. Septuagint for Hebrew, Genesis 19:2, "My lords," 23:6-11-15.
d-1. Spoken of God and Christ. Of God as the Supreme Lord and sovereign of the universe, usually in Septuagint for Hebrew, Jehovah. With the article, "The Lord," Matthew 1:22, 5:33. Mark 5:19. Luke 1:6-28. Acts 7:33. Hebrews 8:2-10. James 4:15. Without the article, "Lord," Matthew 27:10. Mark 13:20. Luke 1:58. Acts 7:49. Romans 4:8. Hebrews 7:21. 1 Peter 1:25. Septuagint for Hebrew, "The LORD," Job 1:7. Genesis 11:5, 18:33. Hebrew, "LORD," Isaiah 49:14. 1 Kings 22:6. Hebrew, "Lord God," Psalms 73:28. 1 K.2:26. Hebrew, "God," 1 Samuel 23:7. Genesis 21:2-6, "God," Job 8:3. Numbers 23:8. Hebrew, "Almighty," Job 6:4-14, "The Almighty." With the adjuncts, without the article, as Matthew 4:7-10, "The Lord thy God." Matthew 22:37. Luke 1:16. Septuagint for Hebrew, "The LORD God," Isaiah 25:8. Ezekiel 4:14. Romans 9:29,"Lord of Sabbath." James 5:4. Septuagint for Hebrew, "LORD of Hosts," 1 Samuel 15:2. Isaiah 1:9. 2 Corinthians 6:18, "The Lord Almighty." and, "Lord God Almighty," Revelation 4:8, 11:17. Septuagint for Hebrew, 2 Samuel 7:8. Nahum 2:13. "Lord of lords," 1 Timothy 6:15, compare in, "Acts 17:24, "Lord of heaven and earth," and so applied also to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth." Luke 10:21. Compare Hebrew, "LORD God of heaven," Septuagint and Hebrew, "LORD his God," 2 Chronicles 36:23. Ezra 1:2. Nehemiah 1:5.
d-2. Of the Lord Jesus Christ. In reference to His abode on earth as a master and teacher, where it is, "Lord," Matthew 17:4, with Mark 9:5, "Master," and Luke 9:33. Comp. also John 13:13-14, "Master and Lord." So chiefly in the evangelists before the resurrection of Christ, and with the article, "The Lord," emphatic, Matthew 21:3, Matthew 28:6. Luke 7:13, 10:1. John 4:1, 20:2-13, "My Lord." Acts 9:5. 1 Corinthians 9:5. With adjuncts, as John 13:13, "Master and Lord," verse 14, "Lord and Master." Luke 24:3, Acts 1:21, 4:33.
d-3. As the Supreme Lord of the gospel dispensation, Head over all things to the church, Ephesians 1:22, "To be the head over all things to the church." Lord of all Romans 10:12, compare with Romans 9:5, "Christ came, who is over all." 1 Corinthians 15:25 sequel to follow, Hebrews 2:8, 8:1. Revelation 17:14. With the article, "The Lord," Mark 16:19-20. Acts 8:25, 19:10. 2 Corinthians 3:17. Ephesians 5:10. Colossians 3:23. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-5. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 5:7. So, common form genitive, of person, "The Lord said unto my Lord," etc. Matthew 22:44. Ephesians 6:9. Hebrews 7:14. Revelation 11:8. Without the article, Luke 1:76, "Of (the) Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:16-17. Colossians 4:1. 2 Peter 3:10. With adjuncts, as common form article, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 11:23. Romans 4:24. Hebrews 13:20, "Our Lord Jesus." Romans 16:18, "Our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 16:31, "The Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 13:14. Romans 1:4. 1 Corinthians 1:9. 1 Corinthians 1:2-10, "Name of our Lord." Galatians 6:18. Ephesians 3:11, "In Christ." 1 Timothy 1:2. 2 Peter 1:2. So without the article as Romans 10:9, "(The) Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 12:3. Philippians 2:19. As in the Messiah, Luke 2:11, "Is Christ the Lord." Romans 1:7. 2 Corinthians 1:2. Philippians 1:2. 2 Corinthians 4:5, Galatians 1:3. Further in the phrase, "In the Lord," without the article, found only in the usage of Paul except once, Revelation 14:13, and to be explained from the fact, that believers are represented as one with Christ, as members of His body, Ephesians 5:30, "We are members of His body," compare with 1 Corinthians 12:27, "Ye are the body of Christ, and members," or of one spiritual body of which He is the Head, Colossians 3:19, compare with Ephesians 2:20, and are therefore in Christ. Hence, "In the Lord," is,
1. In the Lord, after verbs of rejoicing, trusting, etc. Philippians 3:1. 1 Corinthians 1:31. Philippians 2:19.
2. In, or by the Lord, by His authority, Ephesians 4:17. 1 Thessalonians 4:1.
3. In or through the Lord, through His aid and influence, by His help, 1 Corinthians 15:58. 2 Corinthians 2:12. Galatians 5:10. Ephesians 2:21. Colossians 4:17.
4. In the work of the Lord, in the gospel-work, Romans 16:8-13. 1 Corinthians 4:17, 9:2. Ephesians 6:21. 1 Thessalonians 5:12.
5. As marking condition, one in the Lord, as in united with Him, His follower, a Christian, Romans 16:11. Philippians 4:1. Philemon 16.
6. As denoting manner, in the Lord, as becomes those who are in the Lord, Christians, Romans 16:2-22. 1 Corinthians 7:39. Ephesians 6:1. Philippians 2:29. Colossians 3:18.