Why Believe This Claim?

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POI
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Why Believe This Claim?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Taken from an exchange here (posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1166484).
RugMatic wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:52 am It doesn't matter to me what the disciples saw and experienced. I believe they saw and experienced a resurrected Jesus, but the particulars are of little interest to me.
In essence, I'd like to focus here...

For Debate: Why believe that a man laid dead in a tomb for 1 1/2 to 3 days, and then rose again?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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William
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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #131

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #130]

Who is the “bad guy”?

What does “standing up” entail — defense? understanding? refusal to dehumanize?

Why is that action the now that matters most, and how does it avoid enabling harm?
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An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)

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The Tanager
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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #132

Post by The Tanager »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 4:58 pmI think we should turn the earth now: Make things better for everyone. We can. But with the understanding that every one is part of everyone, even you and me.
But why should someone else care about your goal of 'better for everyone' versus better for me? Or, even if they do agree with that, agree with you on what is truly better for everyone?

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #133

Post by Purple Knight »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 6:47 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 4:58 pmI think we should turn the earth now: Make things better for everyone. We can. But with the understanding that every one is part of everyone, even you and me.
But why should someone else care about your goal of 'better for everyone' versus better for me?
They don't have to. But then, I am also free to care about myself first and not the other person. Or at least, I should be. Without morality, I would be.
The Tanager wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 6:47 amOr, even if they do agree with that, agree with you on what is truly better for everyone?
They get to say what's best for them. I get to say what's best for me. And we can either work together to find what best harmonises both of these ideals, or not. Not is bad for both.
William wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 1:53 am [Replying to Purple Knight in post #130]

Who is the “bad guy”?
Whoever it is okay to dehumanise.
William wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 1:53 amWhat does “standing up” entail — defense? understanding? refusal to dehumanize?
All of the above.
William wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 1:53 amWhy is that action the now that matters most, and how does it avoid enabling harm?
Because those who we are free to hurt without social or moral consequences are the ones who get hurt the most. You avoid enabling harm by avoiding enabling harm. It's a separate issue than whether people who believe the wrong things are subhumans who do not deserve rights.

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #134

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #133]
Who is the “bad guy”?
Whoever it is okay to dehumanise.
So the "bad guy" is the one which is "okay" to dehumanize? What about the one doing the dehumanizing? Is that also the "bad guy" or is that the "good guy"?
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An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #135

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Eyewitness accounts: The New Testament documents claim many people saw him alive after his death, including over 500 at once.
Empty tomb: His tomb was found empty, and his enemies couldn't produce the body.
Disciples' transformation: His followers went from terrified and scattered to boldly proclaiming his resurrection, even facing persecution and death. This radical change is often attributed to a real encounter with the risen Jesus.

This will not be enough, though. It wasn't for me. God instead made himself known to me, and then shortly after made known to me the resurrection.

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #136

Post by bluegreenearth »

AquinasForGod wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:30 am [Replying to POI in post #1]

Eyewitness accounts: The New Testament documents claim many people saw him alive after his death, including over 500 at once.
Empty tomb: His tomb was found empty, and his enemies couldn't produce the body.
Disciples' transformation: His followers went from terrified and scattered to boldly proclaiming his resurrection, even facing persecution and death. This radical change is often attributed to a real encounter with the risen Jesus.

This will not be enough, though. It wasn't for me. God instead made himself known to me, and then shortly after made known to me the resurrection.
What reasonably obtainable evidence would falsify the claim that Jesus was supernaturally resurrected or is it not possible to discover if it is false?

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #137

Post by POI »

AquinasForGod wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:30 am This will not be enough, though. It wasn't for me. God instead made himself known to me, and then shortly after made known to me the resurrection.
How do you know this? Can you explain?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #138

Post by Clownboat »

POI wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 12:52 pm Taken from an exchange here (posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1166484).
RugMatic wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:52 am It doesn't matter to me what the disciples saw and experienced. I believe they saw and experienced a resurrected Jesus, but the particulars are of little interest to me.
In essence, I'd like to focus here...

For Debate: Why believe that a man laid dead in a tomb for 1 1/2 to 3 days, and then rose again?
There is a specific religion that requires you to believe that such an event happened in order for your eternals soul to live on in paradise. Otherwise eternal suffering awaits you.
Getting someone to believe such a thing (and the competing religious ideas) best takes place when they are young and impressionable.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Why Believe This Claim?

Post #139

Post by POI »

Clownboat wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 4:09 pm Getting someone to believe such a thing (and the competing religious ideas) best takes place when they are young and impressionable.
Yes, I believe the Christian handbook attests to this specific strategy:

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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