"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #179]

You can count on your fingers those who were, are, and will be convinced..

Somewhere between 0 and 8 then. That's not very impressive...

The problem with your judgment is its non-proximity to the jubilation in Heaven - the Heavenlies rejoice always, even when one soul turns to God wholeheartedly and unconditionally. God does not look at magnitude and quantity, but at quality and intention. God said He will still come on His Second Coming, even if only one soul continues to follow and trust Him wholeheartedly and unconditionally.

[JehovahsWitness]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming ...

Where did he say that?

[OneJack]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming ...

Where did he say that?

God said that [to us] in one of His tutorial lessons with us.

[William]

[Replying to OneJack in post #181]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming, even if only one soul continues to follow and trust Him wholeheartedly and unconditionally.

Let me guess now...that one persons name starts with O and ends with Kay....

Does God have a sense of humor, do you think?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #181]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming, even if only one soul continues to follow and trust Him wholeheartedly and unconditionally.

Let me guess now...that one persons name starts with O and ends with Kay....

Does God have a sense of humor, do you think?

No wonder, all things emanate only from God, the sense of humor is no exception, of course!

[JehovahsWitness]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming ...

Where did he say that?

God said that [to us] in one of His tutorial lessons with us.

So you are telling me that the words you have written come from Almighty God? Are you claiming to be writing the words of God in a post?

[OneJack]

God said He will still come on His Second Coming ...

Where did he say that?

God said that [to us] in one of His tutorial lessons with us.

So you are telling me that the words you have written come from Almighty God?

Not all the words I have written come from the Almighty, since some of those words that I have written are my personal words

Are you claiming to be writing the words of God in a post?

Only those that I enclosed in quotation marks and shaded are the words that God uttered to us.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #174]

Could you point me to where in the Bible we can read the following [today's] teachings of the Lord Jesus?

The Lord says to all:

"I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me."

If you recall, I said the only thing that would not be in the Bible is what is said about the pastor. I then went on to discuss what Paul had to say about Jesus giving us pastors. Other than that, everything else comes straight out of the Bible. So then, why are we having this discussion again?

"I said to a woman, 'What was the last sin you committed today?' The woman replied, 'I don't remember.' I said, 'You don't remember or you don't know the meaning of sin?' The woman answered, 'Forgive me, because I don't know the meaning of sin.'

Then I said to a rich person who was doing charitable works, 'What was the last sin you committed today?' The rich person replied, 'I haven't committed any sin because I've been busy with charitable works and doing good deeds.'

'You are ignorant of your sins. Your good deeds won't save you. Come and I will teach you. Only your Lord can teach you the meaning of sin, especially since there are many errors and not included in the Bible.

For example, when it says "Thou shalt not kill," the word "not" means "should not do." But without your Lord teaching you, how will you know what's right or wrong? Unless you let go of the old, what you've learned on your own will not bring you the wisdom that comes from your Lord.

If you don't let go of the old, you'll remain ignorant of the meaning of sin because no one can teach you the meaning of these things except your Lord God. No amount of good deeds will save you unless you trust and dedicate your life to your Lord God, the Almighty."

I have no idea what the above is? Sounds like a whole lot of nonsense.

You said in your previous post:

In the beginning of Acts the apostles' preformed miracles, such as the healing of the sick, and the raising of the dead etc. It is also reported that some of the apostles heard directly from Jesus. The strange thing is you claim to hear directly from Jesus just like the apostles, but I am wondering if you claim to possess the ability to perform miracles such as the apostles did?

Your words speak better, don't they?

Yeah, my words speak better, and I said nothing of coupling. Coupling would be me saying that if you have the ability to hear directly from Jesus as the apostles, then you ought to be able to do these other things as well. This is not what I said. Rather, my point is the fact that you choose to claim to hear from Jesus as the apostles did, because you are under the impression that it is an unfalsifiable claim. On the other hand, if you would have chosen one of the other gifts to claim such as signs, wonders, and miracles, then these sorts of gifts can be verified. So then, let's be clear here! I am not suggesting that since you claim to have a direct line to Jesus like the apostles, then you should have these other gifts as well. Rather, I am saying, it is no wonder at all why you chose one of the gifts which cannot be verified. Not only can you not verify your direct line to Jesus to others, but you also have no way to even verify to yourself.

The bible is not the apostles

If you will notice I said, "the apostles and or those close to them.

and it is also not from the copies of original handwritings of those who wrote the books that comprise the bible today

Okay, let's do the math on this. We know for a fact that Paul knew the apostles, and we also know that Paul would have heard the claims they were making from their very lips. We have the author of the two letters to Theophilus, and in the second letter addressed to Theophilus we have very strong evidence the author was a traveling companion of Paul. With this being the case, we have very strong evidence that the author of the letters addressed to Theophilus was alive at the time of Jesus, and this author would have also had to have known the apostles as well. With this being the case, we have the overwhelming majority of the NT being authored by those who would have been alive at the time of Jesus.

Moreover, what is contained in the NT has convinced most all scholars (even those who are not Christian) that the early followers of Jesus could not have possibly made the story of the resurrection up. Now, you tell me how in the world can documents which have nothing whatsoever to do with the apostles convince even the unbeliever that the apostles could not have possibly made the reports up? I can tell you why. It is because the evidence is overwhelming, and you cannot get overwhelming evidence of such a thing, by reading material which would not include those very close to the time of the events, along with those who were either the witnesses themselves, or very close associates of the witnesses.

I have no idea what is meant by "the Bible is not the apostles" because such a statement is incoherent. What I do know is, we have very strong evidence of who the authors were, and no matter who the authors were, we have enough evidence for a historian who is not a Christian to say, "as a historian I know they (the apostles) must have seen something (referring to their reports of Jesus alive after death). So then, you tell me? Should I trust what you have to say? Or should I trust the material which has convinced even the unbelieving scholars? I can tell you this with certainty. There is no unbelieving scholar in the world who would be convinced by the evidence you have supplied for your direct line to Jesus, but most all of them are convinced by the material contained in the NT.

By the way? One thing I would like to ask you concerning that revelation you claim to have received from Jesus directly. You claim Jesus commanded you to,

"Go forth and make all nations My servants and disciples, and I bless you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

My question is, are you traveling around to all the nations making disciples of all the nations as you were commanded? Or are you sitting on your rear end like the overwhelming majority of all the other Christians who claim this was a command to all of us as Christians? I mean, the command was not, sit at home and type away on your computer, but was rather, "go forth."

it is illogical for you to say that what you know about Jesus comes from the apostles who are all long gone

Allow me to explain to you what is logical. It is logical to know that you would have never known, nor heard the name of Jesus if it had not been for the Bible. So then, if it were not for these "long gone" folks you refer to, and the NT you claim has nothing to do with these "long gone" folks, you would have never known the name of Jesus, and yet because of these "long gone" folks, along with the NT you claim is not reliable, you would have never known about the Jesus you claim to have a direct line to. You really cannot make this stuff up.

What you know about Jesus comes from the written words in the bible, which is a compilation of books derived from the copies of never ending copies of unearthed copies of scriptures, whose authors can no longer testify the authenticity of such unearthed copies of scriptures. Also, the bible is not Jesus; hence, your knowledge about Jesus does not come from the Lord Jesus Himself.

LOL! And if it were not for this same material, you are referring to, you would not even know the Name Jesus. In other words, if it were not for this material, you are so critical of, you would have never known to attribute what you now claim to hear to this same Jesus. It is beyond comical!

It is as if you were just reading a news item about the Lord, which maybe true, not true, or a mixture of true and not true attributes of the Lord.

Was Jesus crucified? Was Jesus buried? Did Jesus raise from the dead? It is all recorded right there by the authors contained in the Bible, and it is these authors who have convinced even unbelieving scholars that the apostles were truly convinced they had witnessed Jesus alive after death. However, you are trying to convince me that I should trust what you have to say, over and above what the authors contained in the NT has to say? I am not thinking you are going to convince too many unbelieving scholars that you are hearing from Jesus directly. Moreover, I am not thinking that if you were to truly "go forth to all the nations" you would have very much impact upon the nations in the least. On the other hand, what the authors have to say in the NT has had one of the most, if not the most significant impact in the history of the entire world. Can you name me a nation today which does not have disciples of Jesus?

This is a clear evidence of your opinion about Jesus; you are coming from the bible, as you acknowledged, yet you seem to forget that the bible is not Jesus. How could you say we are coming from the same Jesus when you're just coming from something, a book, which is not Jesus in reality?

The clear evidence is you have no idea about what is contained in the Bible. Because you see, the Bible is not a book. Rather, the Bible is a collection of writings, and none of the authors contained in the Bible had any idea about any sort of Bible. As an example, the authors contained in the NT were simply living out their lives, and the material they authored was simply a by-product of the life they were living, and the overwhelming majority of what is contained in the NT was addressed to audiences who were already believers, and the authors had no idea, nor any concern that anyone else besides the intended audience at the time would ever read what they had to say, and they certainly could not have known about any sort of Bible. And yet, you refer to the Bible as a book.

Good to hear that, but I doubt, better review all your narratives that seem to contradict your assurance to me.

What I have demonstrated is the fact that I know far more about the Bible than you do, on top of the fact that I have said "I wish the Bible had never been composed." What I do know is the fact that what is contained in the Bible is extremely strong evidence of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I can go on to tell you with absolute confidence that what is contained in the NT is far more compelling than anything you have to say concerning your claimed direct line to Jesus.

You better rephrase your narrative because the ones who hear from the Lord today cast all their trust only to the real and eternally Lord Jesus Christ, not to the words uttered to them by the Lord. How could there be an idol in that case?

Allow me to explain the idol here. What is contained in the NT has brought millions, upon millions to Jesus Christ. What you claim to have heard directly from Jesus has brought only those who are gullible to the idol you are worshipping. In other words, since you have not really heard from Jesus directly, you are worshipping and idol of your own making.

Now comes the paradox of the good thing you just have proclaimed above. Saying 'God has ordained means in which we can experience Him' means you've heard it from God, or received a declaration from God, or witnessed God when He did the said ordination, right?

NO! I have not heard from God, or received a declaration from God, or witnessed God when He did the said ordination. What I do know is the fact there are those who love to make the argument, "you cannot put God in a box." This is one of those arguments which sounds good to the ears and when one hears an argument which sounds good this causes some to turn off the mind to the fact that it does not have to be us who puts God in a box. No one has seen God in all His Glory because no one would be able to do so and live. Ergo, God does not allow us to see His Glory. In other words, He puts Himself in a box.

If not, this clearly shows you are preempting God, even though you haven't actually heard anything from Him yet.

Well, if all scripture is "God breathed" then it is not me who is "preempting." It is you who supposes to hear from Jesus, and you are placing what you suppose you hear over and above what has been written.

For your information, you can experience God through Himself because He is real and eternally living and exists on His own.

No one is arguing that God is not real, and or does not eternally exist. I also am not arguing that we cannot experience God. Rather, the argument is, God has prescribed means in which to experience Him, and when there are those who are not satisfied with the means God has prescribed, they will create their own means. This is what Martin Luther meant when he said, "there are those who want to see God in the nude." He also said, "there are those who believe they have swallowed The Holy Spirit, feathers and all."

What you have fabricated above is a clear display of your capability to create your opinion on things that surround you, as well as claims you've heard and learned from others.

If I am getting my understanding from what is written, then I am not the one who is fabricating (making it up). You are the one who has fabricated means in which to experience God.

Have you heard this from God, verbatim? If not, the way how you put this into narrative is nothing but your own opinion.

I have heard it from the scriptures which demonstrates it is not my own opinion. It is you who has created your own narrative, and can demonstrate this narrative to no one, not even yourself.

Prove me wrong on this.

That's just the thing. You cannot be proven wrong because you have chosen to claim an ability which is unfalsifiable. You know, it is like the green monster in my backyard, and when you ask to see it I tell you it is invisible.

What you are claiming is nothing new. Folks who claim to hear from Jesus directly are a "dime a dozen." These folks are what is called false prophets.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #188]

If you recall, I said the only thing that would not be in the Bible is what is said about the pastor. I then went on to discuss what Paul had to say about Jesus giving us pastors. Other than that, everything else comes straight out of the Bible. So then, why are we having this discussion again?

Your words is so shaky that it can't withstand magnitude 9.5 tremor on the Richer scale, where you attacked me, saying, to wit:

'And yet, this Jesus told you nothing whatsoever that cannot be read in the Bible, so how in the world is there any difference, since both the Bible, and this revelation you claim to have say the same exact thing?'

I have no idea what the above is? Sounds like a whole lot of nonsense.

Absolutely, it does sound 'a whole lot nonsense' to you because of the following reasons:

1. You are totally unaware/ignorant/unknowledgeable of who and how Jesus is in the reality of His existence and living in His own realm, so with His words, which in this case is about 'wisdom' coming from God.

2. You only know Jesus through the pages of the bible, which you coupled with your opinion; the bible dominates your wisdom in knowing anything about God, salvation, and eternal life.

3. You seem to overlook the fact that the bible is not God and Jesus.

Yeah, my words speak better, and I said nothing of coupling. Coupling would be me saying that if you have the ability to hear directly from Jesus as the apostles, then you ought to be able to do these other things as well.

Perfectly said! But if we analyze your narrative saying, 'I am wondering if you claim to possess the ability to perform miracles such as the apostles did,' it will appear that you based your curiosity [if I possess the ability to perform miracles] on my claim about hearing from Jesus, don't you? That is the same as coupling, an instant built-in capability in your wildest opinion.

On the other hand, if you would have chosen one of the other gifts to claim such as signs, wonders, and miracles, then these sorts of gifts can be verified.

You are saying things here that are not an options given by God to the ones whom He sends to choose from. The Lord God continues to send people to the world to bring His name and salvation to everyone, not to give people truckload of evidence for absolute verification to satisfy men's greed in seeing wonders and miracles from God. The Lord Jesus told us that He will not give today and onwards miracles, especially of healing to be performed by the ones whom He sends/will send in order not to further draw the people away from Him, but nigh to the ones whom He sends.

So then, let's be clear here! I am not suggesting that since you claim to have a direct line to Jesus like the apostles, then you should have these other gifts as well. Rather, I am saying, it is no wonder at all why you chose one of the gifts which cannot be verified.

You really have no idea how the Lord sends people to bring His name and salvation to everyone, especially to the one like you, who are totally locked up in the box (bible), which is not God. For your information, the Lord Jesus would not give you an option of what you have to choose from when He called you to go and make disciples, per se. Also, He would not command you to preach the bible to your fellowmen.

Not only can you not verify your direct line to Jesus to others, but you also have no way to even verify to yourself.

Quo Vadis, Jack? Face the mirror, you are not Jesus and God, okay? You are totally out of order with what you are saying here because your narrative is too far from the reality of how the Lord Jesus shepherds His sheep today, where we are now the living witnesses to the Lord. You don't know that every time we try to talk to the Lord using our mind, He instantly respond to us in a tangible way through the means He provided with us, how do you say 'you also have no way to verify to yourself,' which total ignorance about the Lord's way [on your part] have completely eaten you up in this regard.

If you will notice I said, "the apostles and or those close to them.

The apostles and close to them are all long gone. You are only basing all your narratives in the bible, which is not God, and not even the apostles. Don't you get it. The apostles can no longer teach you, much less that the bible cannot teach you, too. The truth resides only in the real and eternally living Christ Jesus; hence, you can't get the truth in the bible, and even to the apostles, who are long gone.

Okay, let's do the math on this. We know for a fact that Paul knew the apostles, and we also know that Paul would have heard the claims they were making from their very lips. We have the author of the two letters to Theophilus, and in the second letter addressed to Theophilus we have very strong evidence the author was a traveling companion of Paul. With this being the case, we have very strong evidence that the author of the letters addressed to Theophilus was alive at the time of Jesus, and this author would have also had to have known the apostles as well. With this being the case, we have the overwhelming majority of the NT being authored by those who would have been alive at the time of Jesus.

You forget two essential things to the truth, to wit:

1. You're not with any of those guys that you have mentioned, and you have witnessed totally nothing with what they did, wrote, and spoke with each other, are you?

2. Those guys and all long gone, and can no longer give you any iota of truth to all the things that transpired in their lives when Jesus commanded them to make disciples.

Except for biblical passages that you may post, everything that you will say about this matter is surely nothing but your opinion, wild or tamed, it depends on how you will deliver them into writings. Did you ever consider the possibility that none among these people whom you have mentioned were commanded by the Lord to write anything about Him? The Lord Jesus definitely told us that He did not command Moses to write any scriptures.

Moreover, what is contained in the NT has convinced most all scholars (even those who are not Christian) that the early followers of Jesus could not have possibly made the story of the resurrection up. Now, you tell me how in the world can documents which have nothing whatsoever to do with the apostles convince even the unbeliever that the apostles could not have possibly made the reports up? I can tell you why. It is because the evidence is overwhelming, and you cannot get overwhelming evidence of such a thing, by reading material which would not include those very close to the time of the events, along with those who were either the witnesses themselves, or very close associates of the witnesses.

The bible is a book of testimonies to the Lord God that He exists. Bear in mind that the Jews, who were the first, now is tailing the last. There are more than 8 billion people now around the globe, yet you can count on your fingers those who truly believe and follow the Lord by how and what He lives and exists on His own and in His realm. Believing and following Jesus by what the bible says is totally different in believing and following Jesus by what He says and does today to His sheep, across all generations.

I have no idea what is meant by "the Bible is not the apostles" because such a statement is incoherent. What I do know is, we have very strong evidence of who the authors were, and no matter who the authors were, we have enough evidence for a historian who is not a Christian to say, "as a historian I know they (the apostles) must have seen something (referring to their reports of Jesus alive after death). So then, you tell me? Should I trust what you have to say?

A big no, of course! Ditch all that you have right now, except for one, retain your belief that there is truly God that exists because of the testimonies of the bible to the reality of God. That would be all, then come and call on to God, and wait for Him to respond.

Or should I trust the material which has convinced even the unbelieving scholars?

That would entail you the sin of bibliolatry, the brother of idolatry, which would send your soul to damnation in Hell in due time.

I can tell you this with certainty. There is no unbelieving scholar in the world who would be convinced by the evidence you have supplied for your direct line to Jesus, but most all of them are convinced by the material contained in the NT.

Bingo! All of them are fulfillers of John 5-39-40! Have a sane mind this time, the Lord God is the only one who can give us all salvation and eternal life, not the bible, not the scriptures, not anything and anyone, okay? Desire then for yourself the one who can send your soul to Paradise with the Lord unto eternity, wake up, Jack!

By the way? One thing I would like to ask you concerning that revelation you claim to have received from Jesus directly. You claim Jesus commanded you to,

"Go forth and make all nations My servants and disciples, and I bless you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

My question is, are you traveling around to all the nations making disciples of all the nations as you were commanded?

He didn't command us to travel, per se, but to make all nations His servants. We are from the Philippines, and you are from another country. What am I doing to you right now? One or two for each country is enough since those two will scatter to others in their place what I have scattered to them, and so on, until the Lord's command gets widely spread worldwide under the Lord's watch. This is where you'll see how the Lord shepherds a million people simultaneously under His power if you come to Him in the realm of His reality.

Or are you sitting on your rear end like the overwhelming majority of all the other Christians who claim this was a command to all of us as Christians? I mean, the command was not, sit at home and type away on your computer, but was rather, "go forth."

This is the dilemma of confining himself to the bible; his opinion dominates most of his actions and thinking, which is far from the truth that comes only from the Lord Jesus Christ. I have explained to you how the Lord's command will spread worldwide under His watch, and the World Wide Web is a great tool in this undertaking; the hassles of travel get eliminated. However, we did this in the beginning when the World Wide Web was not in its high-tech mode. By the way, your phrase 'other Christians' is actually biblical believers, not Christians, per se. They are self-claimed biblical Christians, who believe and follow Jesus through the pages of the bible, which is not Jesus.

You overlooked one thing in that command - the Lord does not command anyone to baptize, as written in the bible.

Allow me to explain to you what is logical. It is logical to know that you would have never known, nor heard the name of Jesus if it had not been for the Bible. So then, if it were not for these "long gone" folks you refer to, and the NT you claim has nothing to do with these "long gone" folks, you would have never known the name of Jesus, and yet because of these "long gone" folks, along with the NT you claim is not reliable, you would have never known about the Jesus you claim to have a direct line to. You really cannot make this stuff up.

False! You're making Jesus, by your logic, as if He were not in existence. Even if we do not have the bible, we can know Jesus because He truly exists, and He ceases not in sending people to the world to bring His name and salvation to everyone. It so happens that He allows some of His messengers to write scriptures, as testimonies for Him that He truly exists, and to make the people come to Him for their salvation and eternal life. Men's logic is not applicable to God's logic in this case, as your opinion is not the same as God's decision. Sadly, you know nothing about Jesus, except for what you have learned about Him in the bible, which is not Jesus.

to be continued.....................................

[Zzyzx]

Thank you for a reasoned response.

I don't have to take someone else's word for anything. I know it to be true.

HOW do you know?