Very often, Christians will argue about context.. so maybe the context of the verse I will be quoting isn't a call to violence, after all.
Matthew 10:34 (KJV)
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
2 Questions:
1. How does this verse accurately represent a message of harmony, mutual love and non-violence that I am told that Jesus was promoting?
2. How does the imagery of a sword suggest "peace"?
What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
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Ray the atheist
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What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #1I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #101[Replying to tam in post #97]
I don't think it will be very productive for us to play He said, She said.
ABOUT OPENING UP THE CONTEXT:
I offered to open up the "broader context" to the entirety of the bible.
I also said that that opening depends on your belief that Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same... as in the Trinity belief.
you have yet to reply.
If you believe that the father is identical to the son, then, the whole Old Testament behaviour of your God is in context of "peace" and "sword".
I am still willing to open up the context of Matt 10 34-35 to the whole entire bible if you like. Let me know.
What is that if not a double standard? What does that show if not bias?
I don't think it will be very productive for us to play He said, She said.
ABOUT OPENING UP THE CONTEXT:
I offered to open up the "broader context" to the entirety of the bible.
I also said that that opening depends on your belief that Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same... as in the Trinity belief.
you have yet to reply.
If you believe that the father is identical to the son, then, the whole Old Testament behaviour of your God is in context of "peace" and "sword".
I am still willing to open up the context of Matt 10 34-35 to the whole entire bible if you like. Let me know.
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #102[Replying to tam in post #99]
Consider the following hypothetical:
If you were an atheist who knew that gods do not exist, and you brought that knowledge to people who strongly believed in gods, would that knowledge not cause division? Between those who accept it and those who fight against it?
I am an atheist.
That didn't happen in a vacuum.
I was raised from early age to 11 as a Christian boy.
I believed everything that my parental and religious authorities instructed me to believe.
I started having doubts early on.. maybe as young as 6, as I recall.
The authorities didn't HAVE answers to my very young questions, so I gave up asking.
I felt that something was wrong.
They had been just as secretive about Santa.. until I figured out it was a nice lie for kids.
A nice lie is still a lie.
My atheism began as a revelation from a book.. I managed to get a copy of Bertrand Russell's fabulous essay "Why I am not a Christian". His tea pot analogy blew my mind.. I was instantly hooked on critical thinking skills, and didn't have time to pretend to myself that there might be a god.. and that it might be the god of the bible.
I would not be an atheist if religion didn't exist.
Atheism as a subculture depends on the existence of theism.
The division you see started with the CLAIMS, not the counter-claims.
The CLAIMS were Christian in my little world, but there are Buddhist and Hindu claims in other parts of the world.
The religious claims come first.. the skepticism about those claims come later.
If religious claims were EASY for a skeptic to accept, like the claim that "the sky is blue and it's not green"... Most people would be religious.
A lot of people don't look up to see if the sky is really blue or green.. and forget the times when it's black, grey or multicoloured. Some people care more to preserve their beliefs than look up at the actual data.
Skeptics look at the actual data.
So, skeptics and believers are at "epistemological war".
How do we know that something is true?
This problem most certainly divides us.. and we really should talk about the problem.
it's a huge problem that we are all facing in these days of "fake news".
MY SOLUTION IS PEACEFUL DISCUSSIONS, NOT UNPEACEFUL ARMED CONFLICT
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #103[Replying to tam in post #99]
You are talking to an atheist who does not believe that "Christ brought truth".
Sorry.
To me, that's just an unsupported claim.
We can debate if your God is real, and that it really brought "truth".
This is not the place.
Try posting it up for debate.
Cheers.
Truth that most people do not want to hear. Even just the truth that He is the Messiah, where some family members accept that and some reject it. Now there is division. Not because He did anything wrong. Not because HE lied. But because the people PREFER the lie over the truth, and will fight that truth.
How many people have been cast out of synagogues or churches for not believing what the religion they were born into teaches? JW's shun people who no longer wish to be JW's, even their OWN family members - mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. That is the reality of things now.
THAT is what Christ was referring to.
Not just jws do this of course, in the past and today. 2000 years ago that would have been Jews who rejected this man as the Messiah, persecuting or hating Jews who accepted Him as the Messiah.
____________________________________________________Consider Christ now:
Christ brought truth.
You are talking to an atheist who does not believe that "Christ brought truth".
Sorry.
To me, that's just an unsupported claim.
We can debate if your God is real, and that it really brought "truth".
This is not the place.
Try posting it up for debate.
Cheers.
Truth that most people do not want to hear. Even just the truth that He is the Messiah, where some family members accept that and some reject it. Now there is division. Not because He did anything wrong. Not because HE lied. But because the people PREFER the lie over the truth, and will fight that truth.
How many people have been cast out of synagogues or churches for not believing what the religion they were born into teaches? JW's shun people who no longer wish to be JW's, even their OWN family members - mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. That is the reality of things now.
THAT is what Christ was referring to.
Not just jws do this of course, in the past and today. 2000 years ago that would have been Jews who rejected this man as the Messiah, persecuting or hating Jews who accepted Him as the Messiah.
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #104[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #100]
Unsupported Claim
You don't provide any justification for that claim.
You are allowed to post the claim so that we can debate it.
This is not the place for that.
____________________________________Truth that most people do not want to hear.
Unsupported Claim
You don't provide any justification for that claim.
You are allowed to post the claim so that we can debate it.
This is not the place for that.
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #105[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #100]
I dealt with that already.
_____________________________________
Lets say that an itinerant preacher gets a cult following. That is known to happen from time to time. Some people flat out reject the message as evil nonsense and slam the door in the face of street preachers... which also has been known to happen.
There are two opposing camps.
Those who are proselytizing their brand new cult from place to place, and those who reject their religious nonsense.
I don't think the preachers really did anything wrong except maybe annoying all kinds of people with nonsense... I don't think the people who rejected the nonsense did anything wrong.
Its fine to try to get people to believe your nonsense... just use your best reasoning.
Some people might be persuaded, after all.
Who started this division.. the Christians were teaching the new cult, or the outsiders who didn't have time for that ?
Lets forget your truth claim.Even just the truth that He is the Messiah, where some family members accept that and some reject it. Now there is division.
I dealt with that already.
_____________________________________
Lets say that an itinerant preacher gets a cult following. That is known to happen from time to time. Some people flat out reject the message as evil nonsense and slam the door in the face of street preachers... which also has been known to happen.
There are two opposing camps.
Those who are proselytizing their brand new cult from place to place, and those who reject their religious nonsense.
I don't think the preachers really did anything wrong except maybe annoying all kinds of people with nonsense... I don't think the people who rejected the nonsense did anything wrong.
Its fine to try to get people to believe your nonsense... just use your best reasoning.
Some people might be persuaded, after all.
Who started this division.. the Christians were teaching the new cult, or the outsiders who didn't have time for that ?
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
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Ray the atheist
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Re: What does "Not Peace but the sword" mean?
Post #106[Replying to tam in post #99]
Your claim is that people who reject Christ prefer lies to truth.
Your justification is so far nil.
I am rejecting Christ.
Therefore, by your reasoning, I stand accused of preferring lies to truth.
Please explain that
Are you accusing all outsiders of your faith tradition of preferring lies to truth?
Unjustified AssertionNow there is division. Not because He did anything wrong. Not because HE lied. But because the people PREFER the lie over the truth, and will fight that truth.
Your claim is that people who reject Christ prefer lies to truth.
Your justification is so far nil.
I am rejecting Christ.
Therefore, by your reasoning, I stand accused of preferring lies to truth.
Please explain that
Are you accusing all outsiders of your faith tradition of preferring lies to truth?
I study religiously motivated reasoning. I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions. I genuinely want to engage your ideas charitably and respectfully. I value critical thinking, empathy, intellectual honesty, and civil disagreement. I am committed to understanding each other’s arguments, remaining open to correction, and discussing arguments rather than attack each other.
