Why did God create Lucifer???

[The Humanist Manifesto]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

[twobitsmedia]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Why does the free will argument not work here if God is all knowing? If you limit the criteria, don't you get an swer that you want? Or are you interested in a real one?

[wrekk]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Why does the free will argument not work here if God is all knowing? If you limit the criteria, don't you get an swer that you want? Or are you interested in a real one?

And the real answer is... God doesn't exist. Simple.

[twobitsmedia]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Why does the free will argument not work here if God is all knowing? If you limit the criteria, don't you get an swer that you want? Or are you interested in a real one?

And the real answer is... God doesn't exist. Simple.

Then you have solved the OP because there cannot be a question about a nonexistant God.

[Metatron]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Because God needed a fall guy to blame all of the evil in the universe on.

[upallnite]

Why would God create Lucifer if He already knew that he would become the Devil?


He knew he would become the Devil because he is all-knowing.



The freewill argument doesnt work here because God is all knowing....he knew he would do that. So why would God create the Devil?

Because God needed a fall guy to blame all of the evil in the universe on.

That can't be right. All the blame falls on humans for not being created better. Wait...That didn't sound right.

The Devil exists so that God can look good. Even if that comparison is scape goating and smoke screens.

[Undertow]

Interesting.

God created man with temptation of the tree of knowlege and the serpant to encourage it all. An all knowing god would know this would happen and would know that as a result he'd have to banish man from the garden and make existance a pain in the rear end. Added to that, ke knew people would start killing each other and sinning so he knew he'd have to wipe them of the planet with a flood, saving Noah, his sons, thier wives and his wife. Then he knew that people would still sin so he'd have to send his son to die for everyone. Added to this he knew each and every atheist or non-believer in Christianity on the planet would not accept Jesus and thus go to hell.

This points to one of three options. One, god is not all knowing and just rolled with the punches to try and fix things as they came up. Two, he is all knowing and let it happen knowing that it would, making him a sadist. Think about it. If we have free will and he is all knowing, obviously he can't stop us doing these things and ending up in hell. But he can go through an infinite number of possibilities of every action any person makes untill he gets one in which he dosen't have to commit genocide, doom man to hell and murder his son/himself for sins which he could have avoided us having. Or... he couldn't have done this at all which wouldn't make him all powerful. Take your pick.

So to summarise that, if god were all knowing (foresight) and all powerful (ability) he could have avoided Eve eating the fruit through going through an infinity of possibilities of the outcomes of humanities actions. But alas, we're all buggered to eternity in hell if we don't accept Jesus. Dictatorship anyone?

I encourage anyone to pick holes in my argument.

[Openmind]

Can't find a flaw. I'm going to do with God the dicatator/sadist.

[Enquiring Mind]

Interesting.

God created man with temptation of the tree of knowlege and the serpant to encourage it all. An all knowing god would know this would happen and would know that as a result he'd have to banish man from the garden and make existance a pain in the rear end. Added to that, ke knew people would start killing each other and sinning so he knew he'd have to wipe them of the planet with a flood, saving Noah, his sons, thier wives and his wife. Then he knew that people would still sin so he'd have to send his son to die for everyone. Added to this he knew each and every atheist or non-believer in Christianity on the planet would not accept Jesus and thus go to hell.

This points to one of three options. One, god is not all knowing and just rolled with the punches to try and fix things as they came up. Two, he is all knowing and let it happen knowing that it would, making him a sadist. Think about it. If we have free will and he is all knowing, obviously he can't stop us doing these things and ending up in hell. But he can go through an infinite number of possibilities of every action any person makes untill he gets one in which he dosen't have to commit genocide, doom man to hell and murder his son/himself for sins which he could have avoided us having. Or... he couldn't have done this at all which wouldn't make him all powerful. Take your pick.

So to summarise that, if god were all knowing (foresight) and all powerful (ability) he could have avoided Eve eating the fruit through going through an infinity of possibilities of the outcomes of humanities actions. But alas, we're all buggered to eternity in hell if we don't accept Jesus. Dictatorship anyone?

I encourage anyone to pick holes in my argument.

Undertow -

There's another possibility, I think. Let me bounce this off of you and the others:

- God's intent is to ultimately drive man to be more like Him.

- However, man has free will, so if God forced man to do things, that free will will be taken away. It is very important to God that man's free will be maintained, but at the same time put man on a path that will ultimately improve his lot.

- So, those two things seem contradictory - how does one achieve their objective without violating free will?

- One approach (and this is very simplified) is to levy pain on man whenever he does anything that is contrary to the standards God wants us to achieve. Now, God doesn't levy that pain directly Himself. Rather, He has beings that help Him, specifically Angels. Think of a hierarchical organization where God is "CEO". He is at the top of the "pyramid" and sees all, knows all. However, His ability to directly influence "worker bees" at the lowest level is limited. Not because He can't do that - it is a very simple matter for Him to directly influence someone's life - but because His direct intervention wreaks havoc on every being in between and, ultimately, disrupts the balance and plan for achieving His ultimate goals.

- So, "lower level" Angels are most directly involved with our lives. Those "lower level" Angels also have more limited "vision" in terms of how much they see across the human population and how far in the future they can see things happening. A rough analogy to what God can do in terms of predicting what will happen is similar to Pavlov's dog - ring a bell and the dog salivates (sorry - that really crude). Similarly, humans react to the environment and situations presented. If the right situations are created, then humans will react in predictable ways. Now assume that you have perfect knowledge of the human and perfectly understand how humans react to various stimuli. Then add in knowledge of what the Angels are going to do and God will be able to see what has and will happen through eternity. He does not become directly involved except possibly in very specific instances and instead influences the action from afar in ultimately very powerful ways.

- That's why there's so much pain in the world.

I'll close out for now (I've become somewhat verbose) to see what your reaction is to the above.

More to follow...

[Undertow]

Interesting.

God created man with temptation of the tree of knowlege and the serpant to encourage it all. An all knowing god would know this would happen and would know that as a result he'd have to banish man from the garden and make existance a pain in the rear end. Added to that, ke knew people would start killing each other and sinning so he knew he'd have to wipe them of the planet with a flood, saving Noah, his sons, thier wives and his wife. Then he knew that people would still sin so he'd have to send his son to die for everyone. Added to this he knew each and every atheist or non-believer in Christianity on the planet would not accept Jesus and thus go to hell.

This points to one of three options. One, god is not all knowing and just rolled with the punches to try and fix things as they came up. Two, he is all knowing and let it happen knowing that it would, making him a sadist. Think about it. If we have free will and he is all knowing, obviously he can't stop us doing these things and ending up in hell. But he can go through an infinite number of possibilities of every action any person makes untill he gets one in which he dosen't have to commit genocide, doom man to hell and murder his son/himself for sins which he could have avoided us having. Or... he couldn't have done this at all which wouldn't make him all powerful. Take your pick.

So to summarise that, if god were all knowing (foresight) and all powerful (ability) he could have avoided Eve eating the fruit through going through an infinity of possibilities of the outcomes of humanities actions. But alas, we're all buggered to eternity in hell if we don't accept Jesus. Dictatorship anyone?

I encourage anyone to pick holes in my argument.

Undertow -

There's another possibility, I think. Let me bounce this off of you and the others:

- God's intent is to ultimately drive man to be more like Him.

- However, man has free will, so if God forced man to do things, that free will will be taken away. It is very important to God that man's free will be maintained, but at the same time put man on a path that will ultimately improve his lot.

- So, those two things seem contradictory - how does one achieve their objective without violating free will?

- One approach (and this is very simplified) is to levy pain on man whenever he does anything that is contrary to the standards God wants us to achieve. Now, God doesn't levy that pain directly Himself. Rather, He has beings that help Him, specifically Angels. Think of a hierarchical organization where God is "CEO". He is at the top of the "pyramid" and sees all, knows all. However, His ability to directly influence "worker bees" at the lowest level is limited. Not because He can't do that - it is a very simple matter for Him to directly influence someone's life - but because His direct intervention wreaks havoc on every being in between and, ultimately, disrupts the balance and plan for achieving His ultimate goals.

- So, "lower level" Angels are most directly involved with our lives. Those "lower level" Angels also have more limited "vision" in terms of how much they see across the human population and how far in the future they can see things happening. A rough analogy to what God can do in terms of predicting what will happen is similar to Pavlov's dog - ring a bell and the dog salivates (sorry - that really crude). Similarly, humans react to the environment and situations presented. If the right situations are created, then humans will react in predictable ways. Now assume that you have perfect knowledge of the human and perfectly understand how humans react to various stimuli. Then add in knowledge of what the Angels are going to do and God will be able to see what has and will happen through eternity. He does not become directly involved except possibly in very specific instances and instead influences the action from afar in ultimately very powerful ways.

- That's why there's so much pain in the world.

I'll close out for now (I've become somewhat verbose) to see what your reaction is to the above.

More to follow...

I'll respond to the bold point at this time. A question - Did god sending a worldwide flood which wiped out all of mankind bar 8 people infringe on those people's free will to choose to live? If god was the force behind such an excersise, were all of the people killed still sent to hell? If so wouldn't that be god actively choosing to send them to hell? Or is god all knowing and he knew not one of these people would choose to follow him? So if he is all knowing how can he be surprised, shocked, angry etc. How can we not consider him a sadist if he knew that the serpent would tempt Eve which would see her and Adam subsequently kicked out of the garden onto the harsh land with thorns and painful childbirth?

And finally for now - If all this pain is to keep us on the right path towards god, and anything contrary to his will is a one way ticket to eternity in hell, how can we not consider that a dictatorship?

Apologies for the overt devils advocacy. When looked at critically, there are just some things which don't add up. I'll adress some other points later.