Love your child's murderer

[Cmass]

A respectable Christian debater recently agreed to what I think was an astounding statement regarding God's justice, Heaven and Hell:

Quote from atheist debater:

Murderer, pedophile, rapist + "saved by Jesus" = You're good to go. (to heaven)
Hindu/Muslim/Atheist equivalent of Mother Theresa = the 'ol lake of fire

Christian debater's response:

Basically, I suppose. Because no one is good enough. And all have sinned. Apparently the thief on the cross next to Jesus made it.

WOW!

Scenario and question for debate:
Your kind, kitten-loving, 16 year old daughter's rapist/murderer was saved by Jesus just before he got the chair.
Your daughter was an atheist. She went to Hell for it.
You, as a devout Christian, went to Heaven. While lounging on a cloud in Heaven, you meet your daughter's rapist.
Do you sit on your cloud and high-5 the man who raped, tortured and murdered your daughter? Would you really have any choice? After all, I would assume this fellow's Heavenly experience - warrantied by God - would not be very Heavenly if you beat the crap out of him.

Further questions:
Does knowledge that this fellow "made it" and your beloved, kind, daughter is in absolute agony for ever and ever actually allow you to have a "Heavenly" experience at all? Or does her torment cause you torment? Or does Heaven come with an anesthetic for the human pain of empathy?
Further thoughts:
I think the "thief on the cross" scenario is silly. The character is clearly redeemable. If you replace that thief with someone who personally tortured and murdered members of your immediate family the scenario intensifies. Or at least it should if you are sane. Eliminate the detachment the Bible stories allow you - make it personal!

Have fun!

[achilles12604]

Achillies said:

Interesting that you should should put forth this idea just when I made comments along the same lines here.
Do my observations effectively counter your questions?

Your observations are, as usual, thoughtful and interesting. But I they are not quite what I am looking for here. Mister Lee has jumped into the personal anguish part of dealing with this question in a manner I had hoped for. If you are to take these questions seriously, they MUST bring you some serious discomfort to think about. They have to be personal or the whole thing is just a detached story from text.
It helps if you, like me, have a child you absolutely adore.
I personally could not tolerate a heaven for me without my son and wife in it and I could not tolerate a God creature who allowed him or her to be tortured for ever just for not believing in Him.
This is a serious conundrum that Christians consistently wiggle around. I think if one were to be an honest Christian, you would have to admit there are some rather profound difficulties in this aspect of being Christian.

Sorry for wiggling around your bullet.

I understood what you were getting at but I guess I am unable to comment. I do not feel that someone who has a deathbed "conversion" would be motivated by anything other than selfish desires to cover their "religious bases". This goes again to a true analysis of the person's heart by God. He would know if the individual was simply covering himself in hopes of getting into heaven. I do not believe a leopard can change his spots at the drop of a hat. I do not think a murder/rapist can repent on his deathbed after a lifetime of living a certain way.


Now hypothetically if someone were to rape and kill my daughter, and then have a true change of heart (so to speak) and he was accepted into heaven, I can honestly say I might have trouble getting in as I do not believe I am capable of that level of forgiveness.

On the other hand, if God wanted to assist me, he could probably grant me the level of forgiveness I would need to get over and past the actions of this guy and be around him. After all this kind of forgiveness isn't unheard of. People do forgive this kind of tragedy much more often that I would expect.

And on a third (or are we on fourth now?) hand, your premise is based on the idea that a person is mentally and spiritually the same after death as they were when alive, complete with memories, emotions, the works. I have disagreed with this idea before. There is no reason to assume that we are the same on the other side. On the contrary the bible speaks of "new bodies". I deem it probable that if we do retain memories of earth while in heaven, they would be nothing more than a dream when compared to the reality of eternity. Thus they would lack the "sting" or the reality we would experience while on earth.

[Confused]

I understood what you were getting at but I guess I am unable to comment. I do not feel that someone who has a deathbed "conversion" would be motivated by anything other than selfish desires to cover their "religious bases". This goes again to a true analysis of the person's heart by God. He would know if the individual was simply covering himself in hopes of getting into heaven. I do not believe a leopard can change his spots at the drop of a hat. I do not think a murder/rapist can repent on his deathbed after a lifetime of living a certain way.

Would you feel the same if the person had a conversion a few years before their death? If they displayed so much sorrow about what they had done? If they took the responsibility and owned up to it? Lets be honest, had the guy not been caught, he would still be doing what he was doing with no remorse. The fact that he got caught put him in a situation where he can find God or find a boyfriend. Even if he was sincere in his remorse and had truly found God, does he belong in heaven next to you while your daughter is cut off from God 100% (since you don't ascribe to hell being a burning lake, rather an absence of God period)?

Now hypothetically if someone were to rape and kill my daughter, and then have a true change of heart (so to speak) and he was accepted into heaven, I can honestly say I might have trouble getting in as I do not believe I am capable of that level of forgiveness.

On the other hand, if God wanted to assist me, he could probably grant me the level of forgiveness I would need to get over and past the actions of this guy and be around him. After all this kind of forgiveness isn't unheard of. People do forgive this kind of tragedy much more often that I would expect.

It is one thing to forgive, another to spend eternity with him while your daughter is blacklisted from God.

And on a third (or are we on fourth now?) hand, your premise is based on the idea that a person is mentally and spiritually the same after death as they were when alive, complete with memories, emotions, the works. I have disagreed with this idea before. There is no reason to assume that we are the same on the other side. On the contrary the bible speaks of "new bodies". I deem it probable that if we do retain memories of earth while in heaven, they would be nothing more than a dream when compared to the reality of eternity. Thus they would lack the "sting" or the reality we would experience while on earth.

If we don't retain the same memories after death, does that mean God can negate free will after death? Or is it possible He gives you the choice to retain or get rid of your memories.

I can't fathom the crime committed as a dream with less of a "sting". So I have to commend your imagination to think of it.

[achilles12604]

I understood what you were getting at but I guess I am unable to comment. I do not feel that someone who has a deathbed "conversion" would be motivated by anything other than selfish desires to cover their "religious bases". This goes again to a true analysis of the person's heart by God. He would know if the individual was simply covering himself in hopes of getting into heaven. I do not believe a leopard can change his spots at the drop of a hat. I do not think a murder/rapist can repent on his deathbed after a lifetime of living a certain way.

Would you feel the same if the person had a conversion a few years before their death? If they displayed so much sorrow about what they had done? If they took the responsibility and owned up to it? Lets be honest, had the guy not been caught, he would still be doing what he was doing with no remorse. The fact that he got caught put him in a situation where he can find God or find a boyfriend. Even if he was sincere in his remorse and had truly found God, does he belong in heaven next to you while your daughter is cut off from God 100% (since you don't ascribe to hell being a burning lake, rather an absence of God period)?

I'm not sure that my daughter would still be blacklisted by God, because he would measure the heart. But for arguments sake lets take WPS and run with it.

My daughter's rapist is in heaven while she is in hell.

Under these circumstances I would have to reply either

1) that I was glad that while in heaven anything horrible on earth (or anywhere for that matter) would be little more than a bad dream hence my anguish would be negated

or 2) God would need some keep seperates placed on the two of us for while God had mercy on him, I probably would not.

[Openmind]

I'm not sure that my daughter would still be blacklisted by God, because he would measure the heart. But for arguments sake lets take WPS and run with it

If she was an avid atheist who denied his very existence, then I daresay he would.

that I was glad that while in heaven anything horrible on earth (or anywhere for that matter) would be little more than a bad dream hence my anguish would be negated

I honestly find that sad to hear Achilles. I really do. You would be prepared to accept your daughter's rape and murder as a bad memory?

If I ever saw an example of denial, that's it.

2) God would need some keep seperates placed on the two of us for while God had mercy on him, I probably would not.

Hardly seems like the place you want to be for eternity. Or on the other hand, perhaps you could pretend it was all a dream, and forgive your daughter's murderer that way.

I think christians need to face either of these alternatives:

- Heaven is not a place of complete love and bliss. We don't get along with everyone, there are still people we hate and would kill if we had the chance

- Heaven somehow blanks out our mind, strips us of any emotion and alters us from what we currently are. Allows us to co-exist with those we would tear to bloody shreds in reality.

I find the second alternative rather sickening. But the first doesn't fit in with what the bible has to say about heaven. I think this is why most christians are keen to dodge the issue, or even deny there is an issue

[achilles12604]

I'm not sure that my daughter would still be blacklisted by God, because he would measure the heart. But for arguments sake lets take WPS and run with it

If she was an avid atheist who denied his very existence, then I daresay he would.

My positions are far more in depth that this single post. I was using a great deal of the precedence I had established with individuals like confused and cmass to get my point across. Unless you have read through all of them, then I fear you may have read my post under incorrect assumptions.

I am of the opinion that a person will not be condemned to hell simply for having no "reason" to believe in him. Take for example a person (atheist) who was raised under the conditions of Truman. A person raised totally apart from any outside influences may very well develop a "religion" of their own. Will this person be immediately condemned to hell because they didn't accept Jesus while alive?

I say no. This line of reasoning doesn't make sense and in fact it places the Christian God into a rather small and pathetic "box". I believe God has the ability to accept and forgive ANYONE. Now after reading through many passages in the NT I have reached the conclusion that salvation is not based on "actions" here on earth but rather on a reading of a person's heart by God. Read through my thread "Salvation according to Jesus" for the details on how I reached this conclusion.

So once again I repeat myself that even an honest atheist has the potential to be saved based on what I read in the Gospels.

Now - Did you take all this commentary into account when you replied above? Or was I correct in assuming you were basing your opinion of my reply on the "standard" fundamentalist line of reasoning?

that I was glad that while in heaven anything horrible on earth (or anywhere for that matter) would be little more than a bad dream hence my anguish would be negated

I honestly find that sad to hear Achilles. I really do. You would be prepared to accept your daughter's rape and murder as a bad memory?

If I ever saw an example of denial, that's it.

Read through the threads about "hell" and you will quickly see what I meant. In fact you don't even have to go that far. Simply read through the posts on this thread when I was addressing Confused.

I put forth the position that after death, we very well may not have memories of Earth. Furthermore, when compared with the orgasmic sensation that heaven will be, the miniscule 80 years we spend here will fade away into little more than a brief dream, ASSUMING we remember it at all.

Considering how great heaven will be, how short life is and the fact we leave our old bodies behind and according to scripture (which is really the only "evidence" we have to judge heaven by) we will be made totally new, I don't think these positions are unreasonable.

[Openmind]

Did you take all this commentary into account when you replied above? Or was I correct in assuming you were basing your opinion of my reply on the "standard" fundamentalist line of reasoning?

Achilles, I seem to have jumped the gun in my responses to you - I apologise. As you suggest, I assumed you were of the fundamental ilk, and posted on that basis.

I am of the opinion that a person will not be condemned to hell simply for having no "reason" to believe in him. Take for example a person (atheist) who was raised under the conditions of Truman. A person raised totally apart from any outside influences may very well develop a "religion" of their own. Will this person be immediately condemned to hell because they didn't accept Jesus while alive?

An issue I often raise with christians. I agree with you - no God would condemn such a soul. A lot of would christians agree, but they have no problems condemning someone has issues in believing things without evidence, like myself. I find them hypocritical, and I wish all christians held your views Achilles, for then I could believe what I wish and be assured a place in the afterlife. A much more accepting God. But I believe they have more biblical support. The bible has some very direct things to say about salvation - as well as the more ambiguous statements you have found.

I put forth the position that after death, we very well may not have memories of Earth. Furthermore, when compared with the orgasmic sensation that heaven will be, the miniscule 80 years we spend here will fade away into little more than a brief dream, ASSUMING we remember it at all.

Considering how great heaven will be, how short life is and the fact we leave our old bodies behind and according to scripture (which is really the only "evidence" we have to judge heaven by) we will be made totally new, I don't think these positions are unreasonable.

Here I'm afraid I disagree. From your point of view, as you suggest, they are not unreasonable assumptions. But to me, they are still rather disturbing.

Let me demonstrate - I can see it through your eyes, let me show it through mine:

We only have a miniscule amount of time on this earth, it's a miracle we exist. We should make the best of what time we have. We only truly know, for sure, that the current existence we have is real. A rational being like myself can only assume that it is the only one we will have. In all honesty, even christians have no way of knowing what awaits them after death.

So why should we reduce this miraculous existence to "a bad dream". I respect your opinions, but I find it so sad christians can't wait to be dead and in heaven (in the ground rotting, non-existant according to atheists) rather than enjoying the remarkable gift we have all been given.

That is my point of view, however.

[Confused]

I understood what you were getting at but I guess I am unable to comment. I do not feel that someone who has a deathbed "conversion" would be motivated by anything other than selfish desires to cover their "religious bases". This goes again to a true analysis of the person's heart by God. He would know if the individual was simply covering himself in hopes of getting into heaven. I do not believe a leopard can change his spots at the drop of a hat. I do not think a murder/rapist can repent on his deathbed after a lifetime of living a certain way.

Would you feel the same if the person had a conversion a few years before their death? If they displayed so much sorrow about what they had done? If they took the responsibility and owned up to it? Lets be honest, had the guy not been caught, he would still be doing what he was doing with no remorse. The fact that he got caught put him in a situation where he can find God or find a boyfriend. Even if he was sincere in his remorse and had truly found God, does he belong in heaven next to you while your daughter is cut off from God 100% (since you don't ascribe to hell being a burning lake, rather an absence of God period)?

I'm not sure that my daughter would still be blacklisted by God, because he would measure the heart. But for arguments sake lets take WPS and run with it.

My daughter's rapist is in heaven while she is in hell.

Under these circumstances I would have to reply either

1) that I was glad that while in heaven anything horrible on earth (or anywhere for that matter) would be little more than a bad dream hence my anguish would be negated

or 2) God would need some keep seperates placed on the two of us for while God had mercy on him, I probably would not.

If #2 was the case, could you place all your faith and love in one who had mercy on her rapist and allowed him in heaven while turning His back on your daughter if she did indeed reject Him? I understand the "measuring of what was within her heart" but in the case presented, I have to assume that by confirming atheism, despite all the good she may have contributed, she has negated the Holy Spirit, hence, by what I recall your understanding of "hell", the God would forever turn His back on her.

If #1 was the case, could you trust someone who altered your ability to experience emotions to make it appear less painful to see what is being allowed to occur on earth? Could you trust someone who manipulated things to make them only a dull bad dream?

[achilles12604]

I put forth the position that after death, we very well may not have memories of Earth. Furthermore, when compared with the orgasmic sensation that heaven will be, the miniscule 80 years we spend here will fade away into little more than a brief dream, ASSUMING we remember it at all.

Considering how great heaven will be, how short life is and the fact we leave our old bodies behind and according to scripture (which is really the only "evidence" we have to judge heaven by) we will be made totally new, I don't think these positions are unreasonable.

Here I'm afraid I disagree. From your point of view, as you suggest, they are not unreasonable assumptions. But to me, they are still rather disturbing.

Let me demonstrate - I can see it through your eyes, let me show it through mine:

We only have a miniscule amount of time on this earth, it's a miracle we exist. We should make the best of what time we have. We only truly know, for sure, that the current existence we have is real. A rational being like myself can only assume that it is the only one we will have. In all honesty, even christians have no way of knowing what awaits them after death.

So why should we reduce this miraculous existence to "a bad dream". I respect your opinions, but I find it so sad christians can't wait to be dead and in heaven (in the ground rotting, non-existant according to atheists) rather than enjoying the remarkable gift we have all been given.

That is my point of view, however.

And herein lies the crux of the eternal debate.

My preconcieved beliefs force me to lean towards a position which you find illogical based on your preconceptions.

Really this entire forum boils down to a difference in what we accept as fact and thus what we build on these assumtions of fact.

I have no issue seeing that my excitement about heaven and how earth is a very short and pale experience is totally justified and logical. But this is because I am approaching the issue from the position of a theist.

If I were a non-theist I would react exactly as you do. I see your point of view. I can even accept it as logically sound based on your set of prejudices. However, as I hold a different set of prejudices, I accept my view of heaven as logical.

[achilles12604]

If #2 was the case, could you place all your faith and love in one who had mercy on her rapist and allowed him in heaven while turning His back on your daughter if she did indeed reject Him? I understand the "measuring of what was within her heart" but in the case presented, I have to assume that by confirming atheism, despite all the good she may have contributed, she has negated the Holy Spirit, hence, by what I recall your understanding of "hell", the God would forever turn His back on her.

If God wants to have mercy on his creation, then I don't see how my opinion should matter at all. God is more than a gladiator in Rome looking to the crowd to decide if he should kill his opponent or not. I may not like it, but I don't think I should hold mercy against anyone, including God.

This being said, I still find the circumstances to be unlikely if not impossible as I have serious doubts that someone who raped and murdered someone would really ever change. Of course my views on this are extremely tainted as I work with criminals all the time.

My opinion of those sent to prison plays a heavy part in my perception of this entire thread. Hence I have issues with the basic premise it puts forth as plausible before we ever start to debate it.

If #1 was the case, could you trust someone who altered your ability to experience emotions to make it appear less painful to see what is being allowed to occur on earth? Could you trust someone who manipulated things to make them only a dull bad dream?

I don't see why not. If this world is truly fallen then it is defective. It is broken. Judging humanity by the tool of history, I have little trouble accepting that we are indeed fallen and broken from what we should (or could) be.

Now if God wishes to dull the memory of this place on purpose I don't think I would argue. HOWEVER, this may not even be necessary.

Your position above indicates that God would purposefully dull out the memory. This isn't necessarily the only way for this to occur and in fact it wasn't really what I meant to put forth. What I meant was that heaven itself is so amazing that the memories of this world would fade naturally.

Just like when someone in a foster home is adopted into a terrific and totally fulfilling and loving family (only multiplied by heavens impact). A child who is adopted out of a bad situation and brought home to live with a terrific family will always remember some of what it was like. But over time, they grow accustomed to their new life and eventually the pains of the past will fade into nothing.

Now take into account that I view heaven as infinitely better than any situation of earth could ever be. And then consider that time has no real meaning there. Very quickly just the environment of heaven would begin to dull and remove a person from the memories of earth, naturally without any direct God help.

[Cmass]

Achilles,
I imagine your opinion differs greatly from Biker or Easyrider. Who is the true Scotsman and how do you know for sure?